I like waving my hands in the air. It's fun, mostly because it's one of those liberating, body moving, get the blood flowing things to do. It expands your personal space and it's hard to do without smiling. It's also great for getting someone's attention or moving along with a crowd at a concert during the slow songs. Unfortunately, hand waving doesn't do much more than that.
Hand waving is pretty much exactly what I think of when I read Celeste's blog entry about KDE4 today.
I'm sure it was liberating to write, but sadly I don't know what to do with it. For instance, she quotes some user who says they can't figure out how to make their Plasma look like what I use. There's no mention of what they can't figure out, what screenshot they were looking at ... nothing.
I don't know if the problem is that they are using 4.0.x, or 4.1beta1 or if they've run into one of the usability issues that remain such as the drag handle for resizing panels not being obvious enough for many.
Celeste talks about features she sees in blog entries but doesn't say which blog entries, which features, which content or really any concrete detail at all.
This leaves someone like myself staring at the entry and feeling absolutely, entirely helpless. There's a stated general problem but with absolutely no real world examples to discuss, no actual problems to address ... just a vague waving of arms in the air.
So if you, dear reader, wish to be helpful versus just leave me with things to stare at with a very uncomfortable feeling in my stomach, be specific. Get the handing waving in, sure, but then give me something to grab onto: extend your hands with one or two artifacts of your experience that we can share and discuss.
One of the great fallacies of conversation is that you can discuss generalities without specifics and still arrive at useful results. Unfortunately, unless you're discussing the taste of the colour pink or something equally abstract, without specifics a group discussion will almost always result in uselessness.
Monday, June 23, 2008
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46 comments:
aseigo I would take a guess and say that she is referring to your last week blog post and screencast or to the nepomuk amarok folderview plasmoid thing. I tihnk that even if she is not specific perhaps you should consider that it seems to be a widespread feeling and it seems to be expressed in many blog replis. I think that if you sit and listen you might hear the crowd speaking.Anyway I think that you are on the right direction with kde 4, but dismissing others fears becasue they can't see the forest for the trees won't ease the murmuring going on.
I'm not trying to be rude here, but I think that most people aren't quite sure which version to use for any sort of sane stability or usability currently.
If I being a typical user install a distro and it says KDE4, I'm probably not interested in what random version of kde4 that might be, but what I do expect from an even number release when I see something like that, is a usable desktop.
Sadly I believe this whole thing has been an EPIC FAIL so far. I was initially excited about kde4 too :(
I think its mostly just a frustration with the system controls and what can be done with KDE4 visually yet. I havent used KDE for about a month, I switch back and forth pretty often though so I keep up with the blogs, but the more advanced controls are "slowly" being integrated into KDE4. I think the main issue is that users want their cake and they want it now. Nevermind that it takes time to bake and slap on the icing, and then you have those who like chocolate over vanilla or dont like the way the icing looks.
Dont let people put too much pressure on you to fix their every little need. Besides, visual aspects of KDE are Nuno's department, let him explain to people why your desktop looks better than the default and maybe if enough people say why they like your desktop better he can figure out just what aspects of the default theme that could be improved and everyone wins. Dont try to do everything Aseigo, even if you're good at it ;) the rule of comparative advantage says you let others handle the small stuff and you work on the things only you can do best.
Missing plasmoids...
at a stab i'd guess a lot of people arrived at kde the first time with a fullyfledged 3.5.x desktop, and aren't used to watching things grow in public. 4.1 is leaps ahead of 4.0, good job :) but a lot of people are just getting 4.0 or 4.0 with backports, so they're always behind the *shiny/new* curve. not quite sure what you're meant to take away from the murmuring of the first comment,must be hard to makeout ;), but supreme1012 is spot on, if everyone wants racier, make the deault racier. if everyone has to get used to a new paradigm/whatever, might as well shake the tree a bit harder. goodluck
@anonymous: "I would take a guess"
and if the guess is wrong ...
"you should consider that it seems to be a widespread feeling and it seems to be expressed in many blog replis."
what i get from the blog replies is a mix of enthusiastic support and some people who are venting without actually communicating. that's sort of the point i'm trying to get at. *communicate*
"dismissing others fears"
ok, so ... in this blog entry i'm asking for specifics so that they can be addressed, and you bring up some dismissing of fears. *shakes head*
if you wish for me to engage with you (the "royal" you) then you need to start really communicating.
@anonymous: "most people aren't quite sure which version to use for any sort of sane stability or usability currently."
i think that's already changing with, for instance, the opensuse 11 release.
"but what I do expect from an even number release when I see something like that, is a usable desktop. "
even number? i think you're confusing either linux kernel scheme from several years ago or the GNOME project's scheme with KDE's scheme. we've never done even/odd.
"I believe this whole thing has been an EPIC FAIL so far."
you're entitle to your opinion.
i'll also note that your comment added exactly zero useful content to the discussion.
why is that?
i'd rate your communication thus far to be more than an epic fail, but a hazard to the community you seem to claim to be a part of.
learn to communicate. it's not hard.
@supreme1012: "I think the main issue is that users want their cake and they want it now. "
i think that's a good part of it, yes.
@marcel: "Missing plasmoids..."
which one(s)? *specifics*.
@mat rowlands: "at a stab i'd guess a lot of people arrived at kde the first time with a fullyfledged 3.5.x desktop, and aren't used to watching things grow in public."
i think that's probably accurate for a lot of people. what odd is that the pressure is on us to change our methods rather than for any of them to change theirs. given who is creating the value here, it's surprising to me that those individuals are set straight by others who are being robbed by the effects of their behaviour.
"not quite sure what you're meant to take away from the murmuring of the first comment,must be hard to makeout"
indeed.
"if everyone wants racier, make the deault racier."
heh .. remind me what my motivation is to make what "everyone" wants? (keeping in mind that "everyone" is pretty much always a minority)
"if everyone has to get used to a new paradigm/whatever, might as well shake the tree a bit harder."
we're trying.
"goodluck"
thanks =)
oh, and in case it isn't clear enough: i'm really not looking to get into conversations with yet more people over more vague concepts.
i want specifics, i want actual communication and in this case i'd like to see that sepcifically from Celeste (though others are welcome too)
if you can't meet the above, let's just pretend we did but don't. =)
"If I being a typical user install a distro and it says KDE4, I'm probably not interested in what random version of kde4 that might be, but what I do expect from an even number release when I see something like that, is a usable desktop."
And "OS X" can include anything from version 10.0 to 10.5. The difference between those two is huge. Just like difference between (for example) KDE 4.0 and 4.3 will be.
And like Aaron asked: What "even number release"? KDE3.5 is an odd-number release, is it a half-baked release or something?
"Sadly I believe this whole thing has been an EPIC FAIL so far."
If that is the case, it's because people were expecting something else than what was promised. KDe4.0 is the foundation of future KDE4-releases will be built upon. Problem is that lots of people rushed to KDE4.0, expecting a fully-featured desktop that could be a drop-in replacement for KDE3.5, when in fact it was something else entirely.
And hiow exactly is this an "epic fail"? You are being given software for free, and you consider it a "failure"? Do you think that you are entitled to something here?
To the anon; calling KDE4 an epic fail is like walking into the kitchen, stealing a piece of raw meat and when you conclude it tastes awful you say that the restaurant may be famous for its steak, but you really don't see it.
Well, to be honest, if you can't wait till its done, your dissapointment is to be expected.
If you want to vent your dissapointment, please do it elsewhere while you wait for us to finish up KDE4 for *your* pleasure.
Oh, and read this one; http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html It would help people realize why some communication really isn't helpful but even destructive.
I strongly believe that you should listen to what Celeste has to say. I have been telling different KDE-dev-members this for over a year now. KDE is losing users. What you should do with it? Well, make KDE appealing as was once the goal for the KDE project. A reaction like this on a true story Celeste is trying to open up on, is closing your eyes. I'm sure you've done a great job in setting up the plasma-architecture, but architecture isn't enough. Functionality and appeal are. And right now, the desktop isn't appealing for a lot of users. So, do you stay stubborn or are you going to be open for criticism?
"which one(s)? *specifics*."
Flickr, rss feeds, twitter, comics.
Plus, Lancelot.
All in screenshots, nothing in Kubuntu.
I have been reading blogs, listening to community members on podcasts and whatnot, and following various mailing lists. What I have gotten from all of this is that KDE4 development is going smoothly and is pretty much where *everyone* said it would be at this point. Every time I log into a KDE4 session I know what to expect. The only problem I have is with dual head setups, which is addressed in bug 156475. Guess what? You have a comment in the bug saying when to expect it fixed. My point is that you have been trying to communicate from day 1, but many times others want to complain and not sit down and talk about what the real problems might be.
Also, on the issue of users reading developer blogs and wondering why their desktop looks different, that's probably because the user installed binaries from their distro and the developer has compiled a recent svn trunk. I think this is safe to assume because I know I'm reading a *developer's* blog. Other users may come to different conclusions. Something that may help here is adding a caption to screenshots or screencasts saying what version of KDE4 you are using (compiled from trunk, latest $DISTRO packages, etc.) This might help with this problem a little bit.
Keep up the good work.
My specific issues (oh, don't know if this are specific to the 4.0.5 fedora 9 that I'm using). And maybe some are due to my own ignorance:
- display resolution and refresh rate control
- network and wifi configuration gui (using the one that comes with gnome right now)
- raptor-menu (more a wish than a problem)
- kdm and kdm configuration. default authentication of user at kdm conf.
- Device applet, now you can browse the new devices, you should be able to browse all mounted devices (another tab maybe)
- a show desktop icon at the bottom bar (even more important with plasmoids than with 3.5)
- for 4.1 would be important to include the killer apps like k3b and amarok. Would be important to ditch arts from repositories.
- easer trash control. (I think this one is specific of my version by the lack of trash plasmoid)
sorry for all time wasted reading 4.0.5 problems. Hope could and assistance. You guy are making a great job.
I'm going to add to this, I've been using truc for a while now (re-compiling every weekend or so), and I've seen KDE advance in leaps and bounds.
That said, I still remember 4.0 from my builds from december, and I can understand someone feeling left out if that's all they've got and seeing all the awsome (?sp) in the latest releases.
KDE 4.1 vs 4.0 has nothing to do with KDE 3.5 vs 3.4. We're talking a compleatly different beast, and I'm sure that when 4.1 goes stable and is shipped, the rants will more or less disapear.
One last thing, my pet peeve: plasma not saving the configuration on logout and having to re-do my plasmoids 3-4 times before they stick. I know that this is being worked on, and I'm patient, so I won't mention it again.
There
/rant off
Thanks for your work.
David (A Gnome convert, thanks to KDE4)
@Danny:
> I'm sure you've done a great job
> in setting up the plasma-
> architecture, but architecture
> isn't enough. Functionality
> and appeal are. And right now,
> the desktop isn't appealing for
> a lot of users.
Extremely "useful" input... Did you read Aaron's blog entry at all? Hint: "So if you, dear reader, wish to be helpful versus just leave me with things to stare at with a very uncomfortable feeling in my stomach, be specific."
> So, do you stay stubborn or are
> you going to be open for
> criticism?
I really understand Aaron's frustration because he has to deal with user "input" like this. Maybe this is the price we developers have to pay when the user community grows...
"I strongly believe that you should listen to what Celeste has to say."
*sigh*
The entire point of Aaron's blog entry is that Celeste *didn't say anything he could act upon*.
"I have been telling different KDE-dev-members this for over a year now."
Do you think there is a conspiracy in KDE to completely ignore what one of its very few and most useful usability gurus has to say?
"KDE is losing users."
Oh? Got any figures to back that up? The big blob of KDE software on the wildly successful Asus EEE Pc and the 52M user deployment in Brazil say otherwise.
"Well, make KDE appealing as was once the goal for the KDE project."
What, precisely, do you think the KDE devs are doing? Sitting around saying, "Hmmm ... you know, KDE is just *too* appealing. How can we spend our time making it worse?"
"A reaction like this on a true story Celeste is trying to open up on, is closing your eyes."
Oh, come on, you've got to just be trolling at this point - no one could miss such a clearly-made point so completely without it being intentional. Aaron is asking for *specific criticisms* from Celeste (and the rest of the community) because vague criticisms *can't be acted upon*. So what we have is e.g.
Person A: KDE has usability issues.
Person B: I know that, but this statement is of no use to anyone unless you tell me specifically what they are so we can try and fix them. Give specific examples of these issues - something like "users don't expect to find single vs double-click to open in the Mouse settings" or "Making all videos open with a newly-installed video player is very manual and time-consuming task" or "people don't associate the cashew on the panel with configuring the panel, and when they do, they don't understand the function of the blue and green arrows ", etc.
Dennie: Person B is burying his head in the sand!!
Person B: *cries and stamps on kittens*
"I'm sure you've done a great job in setting up the plasma-architecture, but architecture isn't enough. Functionality and appeal are. And right now, the desktop isn't appealing for a lot of users."
Do you honestly, sincerely believe that Aaron is not aware of this? Honestly?
I'm guessing the disconnect here is that Aaron is both an experienced developer (so he knows that if you want to do it right, the "functionality and appeal" need to come *after* the solid framework); has experience of just what a complete departure from an existing codebase looks like (the first few revisions are not going to be as functional or bug-free as the old, well-established codebase); and also knows that (and this is a point that - bafflingly - seems to be completely lost on people) new code bases generally improve rapidly and dramatically, so it is completely nonsensical to judge the future of a project by its first few revisions, and has not been able to communicate this in a way that all end users can understand (or he has, and people persist in missing the point out of sheer bloody-mindedness ;)).
"So, do you stay stubborn or are you going to be open for criticism?"
I'm not even going to bother tackling this one - "it's not even wrong", in the words of a famous physicist.
Actually I feel different about missing plasmoids
Most blog entries about plasma celebrate the introduction of yet another plasmoid, but I still can't rearange items on the taskbar using 4.0.82
And it certainly looks like it is going to stay that way for 4.1, I wish for more developing to get up par to 3.5.9 functionality and configurability
KDE4 is an awesome release, but instead of introducing new things all the time work should be done on finetuning (yeah the boring stuff =/)
It's that way with many KDE centered applications now, there is no leaving "new functionality development state", amarok is another example for this
"KDE is losing users"
Do you have facts to back up that claim? Hell, just few weeks ago we heard news of _millions_ of new KDE-users in Brazil!
"Well, make KDE appealing as was once the goal for the KDE project."
And I believe that is still the goal. But the things is that making software useful and beautiful is not easy. You make it sound like KDE-devels could do just that by snapping their fingers, but they are too lazy to do that.
"A reaction like this on a true story Celeste is trying to open up on, is closing your eyes."
The thing is that Aaron is asking for specifics on things that could be improved. Simply saying "it's not good" is not enough. Yes, I think that Celeste is raising awareness of an issue that needs attention. But she didn't provide any tangible examples of things that could be improved upon.
"And right now, the desktop isn't appealing for a lot of users. "
And right now, the desktop is not meant to be used by normal users. 4.0 is a foundation-release, 4.1 is a release that brings features and polish, but it's still in beta.
"So, do you stay stubborn or are you going to be open for criticism?"
The way I see it, Aaron is more than open for criticism. But the thing is that the criticism needs to be focused and constructive. If the critique is simply "it sucks", there's not much you can do with that critique. If it's "it sucks, and here are the reasons why it sucks" it becomes something that could e used to improve the software.
The impression I get is much like supreme1012's -- people want to have their cake now. And I think that's an awesome thing, that KDE's development is so open we know what's baking -- can you blame us if the smells are too mouth-watering?
Keep up the good work!
@David: I Use openSUSE 11.0 And Have That Problem Too. I For Some Reason Glanced At plasma-appletsrc. To My Disbelief My Configuration Was Still There. Just That The Default Folderview, Which I Changed From desktop:/ To My Docs ( ~/Documents ) Had Had The Change Reverted. It Appears That The Saving Code Ain't Saving Something That The Load Code Wants, And Therefore The Load Code Safely Falls Back To Defaults.
Ben
PS: I Can't Use Konqui To Post Comments, The Word Verification Image Won't Load :(
OK, communication goes both ways. Just please answer this. When will KDE 4 be at least as stable, useful and unobtrusive to the way most users work as KDE 3.5.X? By 4.2? 4.3? 4.9? When can we finally say KDE 4 is Better than KDE 3.5 without qualification? When can we say Plasma is more or less a finished product? (hint: both now and never are unacceptable answers). In short, when will KDE 4 be ready for my grandmother. That is my concrete question .
I don't have too many problems with plasma right now (probably also because I don't use most of what it offers), but what I've found annoying so far is:
- the plasma applet handles disappear too quickly. The icons are small so it's easy to let the mouse cursos slide past them and "poof" they're gone and you have to go back and try again.
- the same handles sometimes change sides. for example you resize and let go but decide you want to resize some more but depending on the position of the applet sometimes the handles appear on the other side of the applet. it's confusing and annoying.
- applet resize just isn't very intuitive. the center-based resize makes adjusting difficult. a lot of times you want to resize in relation to something else (you want to make it as big as another applet for example) but the center-based approach makes this difficult.
- personally I find the effect of handles popping up and going away all the time pretty distracting. I know you can lock them but a) people might not know this, b) the distracting behaviour would be the default and c) it makes interaction with applets slightly more difficult. Maybe introduce a system where you have to "select" an applet before it shows it's handles?
- the new device applet could use some more functionality. the old dialog that would pop up in 3.5 contained several useful options that I'm missing now (like for example being able to open K3B directly when I insert an empty CD/DVD)
- the icons in the new device applet could use tooltips to explain what they do
- like somebody mentioned before: screen resolution/refresh rate. and especially for people with more than one monitor/TV connected. I don't know what I/you did to finally get my desktop to show up correctly in the end, but for months I had been running KDE4 with overlapping plasma desktops.
- non-plasma: I think Dolphin looks nice but it's a definite regression in usability for me. What happened to multi'threading? Try opening /usr/bin and then decide that you don't want to wait for the entire directory to load and want to browse away... you can't! For me this was one of the big advantages over Gnome. It happens too often that I just rapidly scan around folder in search of something and having to wait for folders to load completely just doesn't work for me.
- Dolphin: thumbnails for folders with large amounts of pictures seem to load much much more slowly than on 3.5
- Dolphin: the preview pane just takes up space, I liked the tooltip with it's larger thumbail a lot better. Also because I could just scan around the files hovering the cursor over them instead of having to select them. I con still turn on tooltips, I know, but they have less functionality than the old ones.
- Dolphin: another multi-threading problem. the preview window can actually block Dolphin completely! trying to show a preview for a large file will sometimes block Dolphin (actually each and every window that it has open!!)
Most of this you will probably be aware of and some of the rest might not be for you to "decide" but you wanted details so I gave you details ;)
First,sorry for my english,then...
Ok,we need a useful system setting which permits to set network,kdm and any base system stuff.This things are basilar and would have priority. When I login in kde4 I can't configure nothing about my system so I have to login back to kde3.5 or I need to do it manually.
Then I noticed that some of more expected things(for me) hisn't yet ready.I refer to kopete integration with decibel(I don't see any really improvements respect kopete3) or nepomuk integration in all the system.People who develop amarok,dolphin should focus on it IMHO because I see this feature fantastic!
Then,some of software which we see in blog posts(as gwenview) should be released early.
Note that I use nighlty packed kde from neon project,it could be missing of much things,so I know that if I compile kde myself I get more things,but end-user wants software easy to obtain in his distribution...compiling is for developers and geeks.
Oh,tanks for everything you're doing,it's amazing,really!Thanks to all kde staff!
Fabrizio
@ Aseigo
100% acknowledge
point taken
your post is exactly what i thought about celestes post
@Quintesse: Do you really think it's a good idea posting Dolphin related issues inside this blog ;-)
If you want that those issues really get fixed, please just use kfm-devel@kde.org, submit a bug-report or just mail me directly. Although I'm a regular reader of Aaron's blog I don't always read all comments...
Anyway a quick reply to your issues. First: which version of Dolphin do you mean? KDE 4.0.x or trunk? I assume 4.0.x...
> What happened to multi'threading? Try opening
> /usr/bin and then decide that
> you don't want to wait for the
> entire directory to load and
> want to browse away... you can't!
Fixed in KDE 4.1, was not a Dolphin issue. Dolphin works exactly like Konqueror in KDE 3 regarding threading.
> Dolphin: thumbnails for folders
> with large amounts of pictures
> seem to load much much more
> slowly than on 3.5
Fixed in trunk. Note when using trunk in the debug mode, it is still very slow.
> the preview pane just takes up
> space, I liked the tooltip with
> it's larger thumbail a lot
> better.
Partly fixed in trunk. Tooltips are available, but no previews are shown currently. Will be fixed in KDE 4.2.
> Dolphin: another multi-threading
> problem. the preview window can
> actually block Dolphin
> completely! trying to show a
> preview for a large file will
> sometimes block Dolphin
> (actually each and every
> window that it has open!!)
Fixed in trunk, was a strigi related issue. However there are still some corner cases where strigi blocks the caller, but I hope this can be fixed until KDE 4.1.
@aseigo: I know where you're coming from. I work as a web developer (web services for cities) and we've had plenty of "If I click a link, it doesn't work" issues. We'd be happy to fix those, but we don't see WHERE the problem is and WHAT happens.
@other commenters: I don't get your attitude. It has been said over and over again that the 4.0.x release was done to get KDE4 into the world. No, it's not production ready for most people (though openSUSE 11's KDE 4.0.4 is quite good already), but it was needed to get people that have the guts to start using it and file bug reports, wishes, missing features, etc. It has always been said that 4.1 will be miles better than 4.0 and looking at the various posts by Aaron, this will surely be the case and I'm looking forward to it.
And don't forget: work on 3.5 is done at the same time. I filed a bug report on a cervisia crash and within a total of 3 days the bug was fixed in both 3.5 and 4 branches.
Way to go, Aaron and all KDE developers and active, communicating users.
I have been following the development of KDE 4 through various blogs for over half a year, and I want to thank Aaron and all the other KDE 4 developers for their great work. It has been a privilege to be able to follow your great work. Keep the screenshots coming! :)
This is something I have wanted to say several times a month, especially the last few months, but did not do so to avoid taking up the developers valuable time. I only do so now because I am frustrated by seeing a few users making a lot of noise giving off negative remarks, and want to make sure Aaron and all the other KDE 4 developers know something they already know very well : there are lots of people waiting out there looking forward to the 4.1 release. I may not have the time to compile from SVN and get the bling of Aarons desktop now, but I'm sure I will be enjoying KDE 4.1 in a few months.
"KDE is losing users."
Hehe, amusing... I guess there are a few users out there chasing bling on the desktop, switching on a whim. I can see how a few users might switch to the most excellent ubuntu 8.04 with a nice balance of usability and bling. I used to be one, always looking for the latest bling. ...and always returning to KDE after a while.
@Aaron: Your dedication to the KDE users is awesome, keep demanding people to be specific!
Sorry for being somewhat off topic... Just had to inject some positivity in here... ;)
@ramiel: I think you are complaining about missing or not-yet-there features without a perspective, a global view. And sadly many others are doing it. Greater nepomuk integration and kopete's switch to decibel will be great improvements but it's impossible to ask for them now when it's clear to everyone (who wants to understand) that it's only a matter of time and manpower for them to be here. You can't have all the advanced features at once. Development process doesn't work like this. It doesn't work like this even in the proprietary software world where Microsoft and Apple spend millions of dollars on their OSs. You have to understand that these great people called open source developers are doing this because they like it and often they don't earn any money for their code. You can't complain, like you have signed a contract, for x,y,z feature that is not arrived yet when you only read about them in a developer blog post. You...we have to wait patiently and helping the way we can in a the most constructive manner. Reporting bugs the right way and not wasting their time(especially because they're using it also for our benefit).
"When will KDE 4 be at least as stable, useful and unobtrusive to the way most users work as KDE 3.5.X?"
What you are basically asking here is "When will KDE4 be for all intents and purposes identical to KDE3.5?". The answer to that one is: Never. Just like KDE3 was never identical to KDE2. Things change, get used to it.
That said: I would say that KDE4 is already more unobtrusive as KDE3.5 is. I find KDE3 to be quite cluttered, whereas KDE4 is a lot cleaner. As useful? probably by 4.1, 4.2 at the latest. But this isn't as simple as that. If KDE4.1 (for example) is missing some piece of functionality that is present in 3.5, does that mean that it's not as "useful", even if it had lots of new features that are not present in 3.5?
"When can we say Plasma is more or less a finished product? (hint: both now and never are unacceptable answers)"
Like it or not, the answer is "never". Software is never "finished". Hell, Emacs is pretty much ancient software, and it isn't "finished" either!
And who the hell are you making demands like that? I mean, you are demanding answers, and telling what answers are "unacceptable". Aaron or anyone else for that matter are not obliged to provide you with answers.
You sound like you feel that you are entitled to something, be it 100% perfect DE or answers to your questions. But you are not. Like it or not, you are being given software for free. Yet all I see is demands, not gratitude.
"In short, when will KDE 4 be ready for my grandmother. That is my concrete question ."
It will reach that criteria in 3 months, 14 days and three hours (give or take 10 minutes). But then again, it's ready for lots of grandmothers at this very moment.
Dumb questions beg for dumb answers.
@Peter Penz:
KDE version I'm using seems to be 4.0.83 (they are Rex Dieter's Fedora packages which follows the beta releases I think).
And you are right that this is not the right place for these comments but sometimes it's not clear where to leave comments for each of the individual parts of KDE. Some of my remarks are not really bugs nor wishes for features but just things that I noticed. Even so I was pretty sure they would be picked up some time in the future. Aaron's blog just made me write down the list of things that bothered me the most in the KDE I'm running right now.
Dolphin: great to know these things are worked on. It's the technical excellence of KDE that attracts me, knowing that deep down things work the way they are supposed to, that it looks pretty is secondary to me ;)
Hmm,
Looks like many comments here are about users posting their problems with some version of kde 4. Maybe we should write a AI bot that searches planet kde for the issues and turns them in useful bug reports.
Ok, for real now...
First of all it is indeed not easy to guess what the problems of the poster are. So in order to do something about that we should know what the problems are.
But I think that many different users have different problems so identifying and solving all those problems for every individual user would probably be gigantic.
That's why I think there is an other (partial) solution, namely documentation.
In the documentation there are things lacking (nothing you didn't already know :-)). I think something like a "getting started guide" or "tweak my kde 4 desktop guide" would be something very good for new kde 4 users. Then, the only thing we have to do is point them there. (It would be cool to have a this included in a plasmoid that's their on the first start of kde (like your welcome plasmoid)).
I know the reason that there isn't much documentation yet, is because of a lack of time. So instead of just waiting for it, I'll try to get some free time after my exams and help here. There is still about a month before kde4.1 so I should find the time for it, I don't think I will find the time for writing a welcome plasmoid though (but there are other ways to communicate the documentation to the user, so this shouldn't be much of an issue)
Keep up the great job!
KDE rocks!
Here's some comments regarding 4.1:
http://polishlinux.org/kde/kde-41-the-annoyances/
Aaron,
I know quite well how you feel. I've been in the same position regularly for the past 4 years. Each year in summer a new product generation hits the street, and each time you get the same mix of feedback from journalists, buyers, users, comments on fan forums. Some are specific in their criticism, some are vague. Most are vague, actually, especially those you get from your own user and fan base. But that's just how it is.
The reason for criticism is always the same. "Something" is not quite in line with what "people" expect. And it's nigh impossible to get hard data in the sense of "what do I need to change in order to fix your problem".
I think it's too harsh of you to demand from Celeste to come up with specific bug reports now. There were quite a few postings in her blog about usability that were pretty specific. And I think her recent posting is anyway just reflecting opinions she's being confronted with herself.
Now if Celeste starts with hand waving I'd say she's trying to (finally?) get some attention. To me that's a warning sign. I don't see her smiling, at least.
There's quite some pressure upon everyone given the huge expectations people have with regards to KDE4. Don't let it get to you at a personal level. It might hinder you realizing that the criticism you see is from people who desperately want KDE4 to be a success. That's what fandom is about.
From the blog: "I don’t care about the evolved experience from 4.0 to 4.1. I care about the changed experience from 3.5 to 4.1"
Well, I like 4.1 a lot, but... I have to agree. Just for exanple, I still have to use amarok, k3b and some other apps from kde3, even that 4.0 was suposed to give developers time to port to kde4. And I won't even talk about programs that will never see a port and will be lost in time :-(
KDE 4.1 is great? Yes
KDE 3.5 is better as being complete? Double Yes.
specifics : fix systray plasmoid.
its ugly as hell when new systray icons appear, and only works on black backgrounds.
other than that , my kde 4.0.82 desktop is beautifull and your vision is spot on !!! ( cant wait for 4.2 to try out plasma desktop activities binded to specific virtual desktops )
To an extent i feel she is right it all has to do with the packaging of Kde 4, When an OS like leopard osx was going to be released the functionality and the nu features that was expected to come along with it actually did come along with it. I feel When we have a major release like 4.1 coming next month. lets ensure that all the functionality advertised prior to the release as much as possible be present.
We should try to avoid a situation whereby a plasmoid,features or functionality that we sing about will be absent in the release that was meant to have it.
I am addict of polishlinux.org @jebaz doing a great job concerning kde 4. And i see a lot of screenies that make me go wow and i would luv to have that on my desktop. I know at times they r dev snapshots but when the full slew comes out you would expect to see most of the improvements that had been touted an(even on planetkde)
aseigo You are really doing a great job. keep it up.We are looking forward to seeing a more packaged Kde. There is no limit to what we can accomplish.
"When an OS like leopard osx was going to be released the functionality and the nu features that was expected to come along with it actually did come along with it."
How do you know? The thing with OS X and other proprietary systems is that they are built behind closed doors. Apple can pick the handful of features that they know they can deliver, and announce those. But who knows how many features were killed before the announcement? Or look at Vista. Look what was announced and what was actually delivered. Still waiting for WinFS....
Besides, not all announced features made it. Time Machine was supposed to work over Airdisks. It didn't do that until long after release. apple.com told how Leopard supports "freezing" the running OS, and rebooting in to Windows. But that feature didn't make it either. Then there were those "Top Secret" features. Do you really believe that those features were just new Dock and transparent menubar? No. I bet that they were planning for something big, but they couldn't make it work.
Now, compare all this to KDE (or GNOME or any other open-source project): Everyone can see it being created. We can see the successes and failures. With proprietary software, we only see what the company wants us to see.
@janne: I have to say that I would quote every single post from you! You're doing good even if sometimes it's impossible to be heard by those who doesn't even want to hear!
I kind of agreed with Celeste's point, although I think it was layed out more like a rant.
I think the point I agree with is that it would set expectations if the presenter of a feature stated approximately when or what version number to expect a certain feature in. Even something as simple as "This feature is in development and end users may not see it for 6-12 months."
"learn to communicate. it's not hard."
Dude, seriously. Considering you are the leader of the KDE community, you need to learn to be more political. The general impression I got from KDE 4.0 is that it was disappointing to most end-users who expected something more polished. I still hold out a lot of hope for KDE4 and ditched Kubuntu in favor of OpenSUSE because they seem to do a much better job with KDE.
But look, someone saying that KDE 4.0 didn't work out for them DOES add to the conversation, even if you don't think it does. It may not be a unique data point, but it's a data point. It is a communication if you're actually LISTENING rather than just being defensive and angry.
So, I'll post specific issues I have (YES, I'm even using a current svn revision):
-Rearranging of Plasmoids in the Panel is not possible. This is *very* annoying, and really should be fixed until 4.1.0
-Lack of Configuration Options. For example, pixel-accurate configuration of the panel size would be very much appreciated.
-Issues with KWin's effects (OK, this doesn't have anything to do with Plasma), for example wrong shadowing of wobbling windows.
-Back to Plasma: KRunner seems to have some repainting issues when it tries to size down.
"Lack of Configuration Options. For example, pixel-accurate configuration of the panel size would be very much appreciated."
Why? Do you spend your time wondering that do you want your panel 20 pixels or 21 pixels high? There's absolutely no reason to have spinners where you can set the size down to pixel-precision.
This is silly; this whole thing started because kubuntu does not package extragear plasmoids by defualt (which includes things like the rss feed reader). You have to install an extra package. Theres no loss of functionality, just some people aren't aware they need to install a few extra packages.
@Marcel: those exist but they are in a package Kubuntu doesn't install by default. i can't fix that, but it's good to know what exactly your issues are because now we know exactly what the solution can be! thanks for replying and providing details.
most of the rest of the comments are quite similar:
actually knowing what you people are thinking about, what you are concerned about, what your questions are .... we can address them.
and that was my entire point in this blog entry. thank you for getting it!
@matze: Celeste is not a journalist buyer or user. she is a blogger syndicated on planetkde that is also involved in the process of creating KDE.
as for our enthusiast users, i also don't see them as completely passive; only mostly so. free software participates.
"There were quite a few postings in her blog about usability that were pretty specific."
not really. every single issue she brought up lacked an example. that's not specific, that's generalizing.
"And I think her recent posting is anyway just reflecting opinions she's being confronted with herself."
i got that; yet there was nothing i (or anyone, really) can do to help her with it without explanation and specifics to discuss.
@Anachreon: "Considering you are the leader of the KDE community"
i'm not the leader of the KDE community. this is not a traditional hierarchical system made of up of those in power and those under power.
"you need to learn to be more political"
i'd rather be honest. ever notice how people hate politicians and even government in general because politicians aren't honest, or at least are always being political?
be careful what you wish for, because right now you are wishing for a completely disingenuous world full of people you can never actually trust.
@Conor: indeed; and i think a really interesting point here is that it shows that Kubuntu is perhaps not communicating as well as it could to its audience.
@Janne: So, the first reason: I WANT IT and I DON'T want to fiddle around with configuration files.
Second Reason: Manymanymany other users want it too.
KDE is also about configurability, isn't it? If I wanted to be treated like an idiot and have lack of configurability I would use Gnome.
It is just better to have the possibility of configuring it like I want, not like someone thinks it's best for me. Idiots like you just don't seem to get that.
I should note that one of the things on the to-do list for Kubuntu Intrepid Ibex is a better set of default plasmoids.
Kubuntu team/contributors, like Aaron, would also like concise ideas to make things better by default. In fact, a lot of the hand-waving should probably be directed in the distro direction!
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