Sometime last night I started a "21 bug salute": pick 21 bugs and fix them one after the other. Closing bugs that are already fixed, are upstream bugs or are WONTFIXes don't count. Only bugs closed with patches do. Currently the count is 11 down, 10 to go. The goal is to be done before the weekend is through.
I keep getting interrupted, however, by the continuing fallout from what has become one of the biggest faith-in-the-community destroying events I've experience. Having read a couple more angry FUD filled blog postings on this matter, proving squarely just how confused people are at the moment, I figured a picture might help.
So here it is:
What you're seeing there is a Plasma workspace with 5 activities (aka "desktop Containments") zoomed out so that you can see them all. The third one in the top row is a folderview. folderview, you see, is both an Applet as well as a Containment; in fact all Containments are also Applets. This purposeful design decision allows one to repurpose certain applets as "things that cover my screen" or "things that appear in a panel" (to name but two possibilities).
You can click on the folderview containment to zoom into it and it takes up your whole screen, covering it with icons that float "under" the widgets. Flashbacks to kdestop + superkaramba ensue.
I tried to explain this previously with words, but lost too many of you in the process. I'm hoping a picture will do the trick this time. In case anyone of you are idly wondering, that actually isn't a screenshot of my Plasma or the folderview's primary author's Plasma, it's another Plasma developer who has been doing things with the ZUI.
Now, you may notice that there is no wallpaper behind the folder in that screnshot. In 4.2 we'll be breaking out background rendering and context menus into their own plugins so that they can be freely mixed and matched: Containment A with Background Renderer B with Context Menus C and D. The ZUI will also provide a nice graphical means to easily select which Containment types you are using, similar to what we do with Widgets now.
Other than the breaking background rendering out into their own plugin set, which is something I only realized we'd need to do about 2 months ago, what you see above is pretty much exactly the design envisioned some two years ago. It's fun to see it come together, and now I hope some of you can see it more clearly as well.
Saturday, June 14, 2008
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
72 comments:
I bet there are a lot of people out there going "OHHHHHH now I get it. I guess I shouldn't have been such an ass."
I doubt we'll see it in the comments, but I think a lot of people owe you and the rest of the plasma devs an apology.
Keep up the awesome work.
I like how Plasma is supposedly both too much like the traditional desktop environment as well as being too radical at the same time... Maybe that means you're on the right path? ;)
From a fellow developer and a KDE user I just wanted to say thank you Aaron. Things are still rough, but's that's ok because things are looking good too (damn good if I say so myself). My thoughts are still exactly the same as they were at the KDE 4.0 release event.
I've been following plasma development from the very beginning, and I've never been disappointed. It seems to me that you've been explaining things quite well over the last year and a half (or more), and certainly since the 4.0 release. Nothing happens if don't make bold moves, and I thing you handled it quite well, making concessions when necessary, and innovating when possible.
Folloing up on what you just wrote, or showed rather, I think what would really help would be a blog post about the desktop containment/workspace issue : what's the use of having ZUI when you can switch from one workspace to another ? I know you've mentioned it several times (maybe it was on panel-devel), but I can already see the issue arising when 4.1 comes out. There are already some bug reports about it I believe.
But keep on going, you definitely have a supporter here !
PS : And please, please, kill the systray for 4.2 ! (I'll do a bug report for that sometime)
"what's the use of having ZUI when you can switch from one workspace to another ? I know you've mentioned it several times (maybe it was on panel-devel), but I can already see the issue arising when 4.1 comes out."
this is one thing that's been on my mind ever since the ZUI was introduced. why not just merge the two? it would surely reduce confusion to new adopters. even I find it confusing. zooming out plasma seems identical to expo. it would be a really neat concept to add to rather stagnant virtual desktops
also, hello from a fellow canadian! (newfoundland)
Another really good post, Aaron!
Imo, KDE 4.1 is rocking *already!* I'm using a number of 4.1 apps (mostly Dolphin, Gwenview and Ark) and all of them are working beautifully!
And hey, if you're feeling a bit "down", this'll cheer you up. It's a vid of a very contented cow-moose, resting on a lawn... :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDCosmPcOmA
Being from a mooseless country (New Zealand), I envy you..... ;)
"what's the use of having ZUI when you can switch from one workspace to another ? I know you've mentioned it several times (maybe it was on panel-devel), but I can already see the issue arising when 4.1 comes out."
That's been bothering me as well since the day I learned about the Plasma implementation of ZUI. Is this yet another technical infrastructure for mobile devices where virtual desktops might not be available? But on the other hand I thought Plasma is dependant on X.
Right now ZUI seems to be a solution looking for a problem, at least on the UNIX desktop. It sounds especially confusing if you start mixing different sets of activities with different virtual desktops.
From my (admittedly possibly limited) understanding it sounds more sensible to tie activities to virtual desktops and disable ZUI entirely. I think many people would be grateful if you could explain some use cases on the *desktop*
-Erunno
"Right now ZUI seems to be a solution looking for a problem, at least on the UNIX desktop."
firstly, you don't have to use it if you don't want to. you can pretend none of the zooming features exist.
that wasn't even the point of this blog entry, anyways.
but the problem it is solving is this: you, the user, have multiple sets of tools collected together for different tasks and you want to be able to switch between these sets ... what's an effective way to do that?
we can offer a simple drop down list somewhere. that's an option.
we can also provide an "overview" system where you can "back away" and see all your activity sets at a glance and pick which one to work with.
it's sort of like expose for windows, except that instead of being a temporary reshuffling, it will let you organize things into groups and use spatial memory to remember where you put "the things i need to work on that final report"
"It sounds especially confusing if you start mixing different sets of activities with different virtual desktops."
i suppose 'sounds' is the operative word. thus far we haven't seen issues with virtual desktops versus the zooming. maybe we will, but so far it seems to work out and past research by others in the field seem to uphold this expectation.
in 4.2 you'll likely be able to assign different activities to different desktops.
it's something that gets asked for quite a bit. in fact, it's the oldest feature request still open that i know of against kde: it's from KDE 2.2.1!
so while some people are annoyed we aren't offering "enough features" others are wondering why we're giving the features some have been asking for for years.
can't win, can i? ;)
in the end, if you don't like it, don't get, don't grok it, hate the idea or whatever else: please just ignore it. go on living your life as you always have and let those who do like it use it.
it doesn't impact you in the least.
There is another dimension that adds to the confusion: multiple screens. Completely ignoring ZUI currently, I'm already confused by having two screens for each desktop (when using two monitors).
In the end, it doesn't make sense to the user: OK, my panel is those four desktops, my windows are on those five ZUIs, etc.
In the end the user sees one "plane" he wants to manage. And advanced users want to have multiple "planes". They shouldn't care whether the X servers handles screens, kwin handles virtual desktops and plasma handles different activities.
Well I understood you the first time round, but I'd assumed when you covered your screen with one big folderview to mimic Kdesktop you'd get wallpaper in 4.1 rather than 4.2 :(
Still waiting won't kill me.
A couple of questions about that screenshot, firstly the plasma icon in the top-right is a lot larger than I've seen it before, why is that? branding?
And secondly in all the folderview containments the icons are aligned in perfect grids to the exact size of the folderview, if one wanted could they have icons in different parts of the folderview with large gaps between them like on Kdesktop?
"in the end, if you don't like it, don't get, don't grok it, hate the idea or whatever else: please just ignore it. go on living your life as you always have and let those who do like it use it."
My post must have rubbed you in the completely wrong (and surely unintentioned) way, so there's really no need to go all angsty on me. I'm just honestly curious about what ZUI brings to the "different tools for different tasks" idea what the virtual desktop concept already doesn't. From my exposure to other KDE/GNOME users that's exactly how virtual desktops have been used for years now. People have different applications, documents, folder, etc. open on different desktops and each desktop is dedicated to a specific task (e.g. development, work, email and casual browsing, etc.), and the Expose functionality of the window manager lets you also have a birds-eye view on all "tasks". Having different sets of plasmoids assigned to each desktop would nicely complement this concept, ZUI seems to add just another layer of complexity (sub-virtual desktops) without a clearly formulated gain.
And you are doing me wrong if I imply that I vote for future cuts. Not everyone questioning (or better: asking about) some of your design decisions comes from the "features r teh evil!!11" camp.
-Erunno
I think KDE 4.2 should include a containment called "KDE 3 mode" or "Good old-fashioned desktop" or "Legacy desktop mode" with a full screen Folder View and no Plasma cashew.
This will make every "oh, no, where are my Win95 desktop icons?" people quite happy and help people coming from the Windows world.
Finally I would thank you and all the KDE Developers for the great work!
Bye,
Diego
First off, I'm a big fan of the whole zooming paradigm. The concept is very natural to me, and should be to most people, since it's consistent with everyday life.
I have one concern with the implementation in plasma and kde, though. The screenshot helping with this.
As I understand it, it's like there are two layers: one for applications, and one for plasma applets. In normal use (eg. web browsing) the application layer is on top. When something from plasma is needed, that layer can be brought to the top.
// begin concern
Because the two layers are relatively independent, the plasma layer can be switched to another task, without any change in the application layer. So, the plasma applets change to the new task, but the applications are still on the old one.
// end concern
Eg. I'm doing social networking stuff, so the containment has twitter, and email notifier tied to my personal account; I've also got konqueror open to facebook.
But, it's time to work, so I zoom out, and zoom in to the work-related containment (very smoothly and naturally), but I've still got facebook taking up half my screen. So, now I'm not really in either taskspace.
Am I understanding the implemetation correctly? If not, how am I wrong? Will there be (or is there already) the option to bind containments to virtual desktops?
And, sorry for the long comment.
@anonymous: "A couple of questions about that screenshot, firstly the plasma icon in the top-right is a lot larger than I've seen it before, why is that? branding?"
no, it's because if we zoom out the controls as well they become really hard to click on. so we zoom out the content to give you an overview while the controls remain the same size.
think of a map on your computer: if you zoom out to see more of the map, do the controls shrink away to nothing with it?
it's the same idea.
"if one wanted could they have icons in different parts of the folderview with large gaps between them like on Kdesktop?"
yes, you can move them around. right now in svn those geometries aren't saved between sessions, though. it's on the TODO.
@Erunno: "My post must have rubbed you in the completely wrong"
yep; not completely your fault, though. dealing with an amazing amount of very public attack i'm pretty much fed up with this "community". so when someone shows up and says off the cuff "looks like it's a solution looking for a problem" it really touches a sore point.
you know what would help me? right now, people being inquisitive and engaging (which isn't the same as agreeing!) would be great. save your pithy comments and personal insights for later.
"without a clearly formulated gain."
Jeff Raskin not only wrote a huge amount on the concept of ZUIs, he also put a few real world applications using ZUIs into production use (a medical system for hospitals being one of the most famous) and studied their short and long term usage.
i recommend reading his work on this matter. it's deep, it's not short, but it's comprehensive and will answer your questions thoroughly.
@Deigo Rondini: "I think KDE 4.2 should include a containment called "KDE 3 mode"
mostly like will; we have the ability to easily switch layouts completely at runtime even. 4.1 lacks a GUI to interact with this feature set (we can only make this stuff so fast =/), but when we do have one i would be very, very surprised if we didn't see an number of wildly varied presets, including this one, emerge.
@Soap: "Will there be (or is there already) the option to bind containments to virtual desktops?"
in 4.2
this doesn't address your other concern about also associating windows with desktop activities.
this is something we discussed prior to 4.0, came to some preliminary thoughts (which means we didn't do a full implementation design) but realized we had a lot of work to get to that point.
to get it perfect, we'll need/want some cooperation with the window manager on this. but that's a few releases out still before we can even start rationally working on that aspect of it, so i haven't even talked about it publicly.
cool that you caught that as needing to eventually be done though =)
Hey Aaron,
maybe you should try to stop responding to rants, trolls, spoiled KDE3 users etc.
I think there are lots of KDE4 lovers reading your blog that those rants will be adressed eventually if you just let them stay unanswered a little longer. Just use a different email for these comments and just check them once a day or even less.
I would be happy to respond to KDE3 spoiled brats that think ranting on your blog will help them in any way.
Deligate!
Stay away from the poisonious people and just be a happy free software hippie that is churning out awesome code ;)
Let the "swarm" take care of all the unpleasentness.
You prolly have more "leutenants" ( minions ) than you think that will gladly take that burden of your shoulders. Just reply when your expertise is really needed. I think a lot of people understand plasma by now and can reply accordingly.
Cheers
Keep up the great work, plasma-developers!!! Thank you!
+1 for the good old fashionned kde3 desktop in kde4.
In KDE4, I would like to have Icons on the desktop acting like in a folder view. I didn't find a way to do that and it's keeping me away from kde4.
Hopefully KDE4.2 will make it.
Congratulations for you work though :D
There was a simple solution to avoiding "spoiled KDE3 brats" from dishing out a lot of negativety and that is to not dismiss 20 years of UI heritage as junk without providing at least a facsimile when knowing full well that the ultimate KDE4 plasma dream is/was going to take a year to implement.
One solution is/was to provide to features to Dolphin, 1) offer a full screen mode which is probably one evenings work, 2) off the ability to persistently place icons anywhere on the Dolphin window, perhaps only for designated folders using a SQLite database for postion storage.
There, done. No need for KDE4 users to whinge about losing their beloved KDE3 desktop folders and file icons. And this would be even better than KDE3s desktop ever was because it would have all the smarts of Dolphin behind the psuedo desktop visuals, and could be enabled on ANY folder, not just the hard wired ~/Desktop folder, AND there could be multiple instances of these KDE3 lookalike pseudo desktops on multiple screens... AND without extracting one cent of wasted time from plasma devs defending their new evolving plasma vision.
So simple, and just a few days work for the Dolphin devs who know the code.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GDl2r0RxpE&feature=related
this one looks nice.
i like the idea of those moving tiles in the background.
i wonder if something like this would be able to accomplish with plasma.
i admire you and the other plasma developers for your work.
it is great!
[just to show you that there are people being completely happy with kde 4!]
I understand the concept of the folder view, I just don't see how is going to make me more productive, in the contrary, I think is terrible, but nice try anyway.
in 4.2 you'll likely be able to assign different activities to different desktops.
well... you just made my day. from day one after hearing about this "activity" stuff ( kde 4.0 wasnt even released , i read your blog all the time) that i had an idea :
one ( or in my case 3 or 4 , i have space paranoia ) virtual desktop for music(with volume mixer plasmoids and stuff) , another for internet messaging ( like contacts and favorites/history plasmoids) and another for working ( like forderview plasmoids).
if you can switch between them efficiently , it will be a killer feature in my opinion.
of course there needs to be plasmoids sticky to all activities ( like clocks , or a kde rulez plasmoid )
@iori yagami: you could pretty well do that in KDE3 and the "easily switch between them" (desktop screens) part is doable then and now by assigning ctrl-left to "Switch to Next Screen" and ctrl-right to "Switch to Previous Screen". It's the very fist thing I do whenever I set up a new KDE3 or KDE4 installation.
and if i understood your previous post correctly the desktop 4.2 should be able configured to look/act just like 3 anyway.
@Kragil, just because somebody prefers something a different way doesn't make them a spoilt brat. And while this thread seams to of been hijacked by ZUI comments most of them seam yo br ftom interested users who are genuinely looking for information not just trolld.
p.s great work aseigo and thanks for the ZUI explanations.
I'm waiting for a way to put the folder view into the panels, too. Like Apple does in Leopard.
For the Foldeview Widget, I found a nice picture (looks appleish) http://www.flickr.com/photos/t_trace/2060171212/sizes/l/
Espacially the scroll bar, fade effect and preview on top looks awesome.
What do you think?
in 4.2 you'll likely be able to assign different activities to different desktops.
And can we hope for moveable widgets in panels and dualhead/twinview support in 4.3? ;-)
@iori yagami: you could pretty well do that in KDE3 and the "easily switch between them" (desktop screens) part is doable then and now by assigning ctrl-left to "Switch to Next Screen" and ctrl-right to "Switch to Previous Screen". It's the very fist thing I do whenever I set up a new KDE3 or KDE4 installation.
i think you are confusing "activities" with virtual desktops.
i am talking of having virtual desktop based on activities.
i mean , a virtual desktop have its own activity. ( an activity binded to one or more virtual desktops )
or maybe i was confused by your response, but since there are no plasma activities in kde3 , i think you didnt understood me
Hi Aaron,
I'd first like to say that I'm really excited about the possibilities of KDE4. I've been thinking for a long time that we should be moving beyond the desktop.
In fact it seems to me that not only do specialized Widgets and a task-oriented workspace make more sense than the bloated applications we've been living with for years, but that they are inherently more UNIX-like. This is where we really get to outshine the competition.
Pleas keep up the good work.
Meanwhile, I've been trying to figure out how to update my Plasma applet for the changes in 4.1. Is there a transition document laying around somewhere? Or some notes from Milan or something?
Thanks!
-mark
Dude,
I must say I don't know much about the ZUI so if my question was already asked, please have a bit of patience. Is it possible to include networked computers on the ZUI? For example, if my current machine is on a network with KDE4 on another machine, can I zoom out to see my local desktops along with the networked desktops and be able to move files by dragging-N-dropping between the two machines in zoomed out mode?
Thanks for the work,
LJ
PS: what's with the hair man?
I recently drove through Edmonton on my way from Anchorage to Omaha.. it seems okay ;)
That background mix and match thing you said sounds /great/. I have videos ready, and some screensavers I really like also. I look forward to it.
..and using my laptop with webcam as a mirror. That'll be cool too.
@markc: so... if it's so simple, why haven't you just done it yourself?
Ramsees: "I understand the concept of the folder view, I just don't see how is going to make me more productive, in the contrary, I think is terrible, but nice try anyway."
Thanks for the encouraging words... But anyway: ask and ye shall receive:
http://blog.lydiapintscher.de/2008/06/14/folderview-is-the-awesome/
And forgive me for asking but... How exactly would folderview make you less productive? In the old system you could have icons on your desktop. In this new system you can have icons on the desktop, but with additional power and flexibility. Could you please explain me the difference between these two systems that makes you less productive in the latter? Seriously? Please provide some tangible examples on how your productivity is harmed. You are not the first person to complain how folderview is worse than the old system, yet no-one has provided any examples on HOW it is "worse".
Waiting...
Is it possible for Plasmoids to specify more than one interface per form factor? Because that will allow users to choose between them, thus providing greater customizeability, and it will also reduce duplicate work since there will be no need to create separate Plasmoids for different ideas.
It will also be possible to offer a generic configuration dialog that is automatically available for all Plasmoids that have more than one interface per form factor.
Hi Aaran,
First of all, thank you for your excellent blogs. Though I personally had gotten this particular point, I commend your willingness to keep explain this, including those all-important screenshots.
I second that you shouldn't let those relatively few destructive elements get to you. Put them in your killfile and be done with it. Let the rest. Many of us are amazed by your vision and the results, and I hope that is the main thing!
Good lord, how do you ever get anything done when you have to defend and explain your work constantly? I would have an Administrative Assistant handle all the grunt work of answering questions and criticism. And if you don't have an Administrative Assistant, well, I think you really deserve one.
Thank you for all the work you do.
Janne, what Im trying to say is that whole Folder View may look "cool" but I don't think is useful at all, the same funcionallity was pretty much covered before.
In a use case when I wan't to accesos some files, instead of have a folder view in my desktop or plasma desktop is better to have an icon gives you access to that folder, and not have your desktop cluttered with excuse me, useless crap, Now the folder view activity is even worse, I would have to zoom our and zoom in just to see the desktop making me work more.
In my opinion folder view is just designed to look cool but not to fix a problem or make you productive.
"Janne, what Im trying to say is that whole Folder View may look "cool" but I don't think is useful at all, the same funcionallity was pretty much covered before."
It offers more functionality than the old system did. Old system displayed contents of one folder: your desktop-folder. Folder-view can show contents of several folders. Also, the content that is displayed can be filtered and automated, and that's something that was not possible with the old system.
"In a use case when I wan't to accesos some files, instead of have a folder view in my desktop or plasma desktop is better to have an icon gives you access to that folder, and not have your desktop cluttered with excuse me, useless crap"
So what is it that you want exactly? A folder-icon that can be opened? And why exactly couldn't you have that with the folder-view? Just have a folder-view that displays a single folder that you can then open. Hell, why not have an icon that launches Konqueror or Dolphin, and then you could view any folder you want? And guess what: you can do exactly that with this new system as well!
"Now the folder view activity is even worse, I would have to zoom our and zoom in just to see the desktop making me work more."
In the old system you had to access your desktop if you wanted to access the icons on your desktop. So pray-tell, how exactly is that scheme different or better than this new system? And no, you don't need a separate activity to have icons on the desktop. You can have icons on the desktop exactly like you have right now with KDe 3.5. Folder-view just gives you additional flexibility on how you can use icons on the desktop, but you are not forced to use that advanced functionality.
So what exactly are you whining about?
"In my opinion folder view is just designed to look cool but not to fix a problem or make you productive."
That's because you don't understand what it does and what it offers to the user.
Let me repeat the question I asked, yet I still haven't really gotten an answer: What benefit does the old system give you, that this new system takes away from you? Seriously?
Jane, you just answered the question your self:
"So pray-tell, how exactly is that scheme different or better than this new system?"
You see?, that's the problem, is not , is the same goal but now with a bad interface. Why reinvent the wheel in something as abvious and well tested and that simple works? Are the KDE developers so desesperate in bring some innovation that are comming with reinveting the well tested paradigms?
The folder view maybe "good" but is not the panacea, and it doesn't improves what is already done, just put in a a new interface that happens to clutter your desktop, because after all, by law in KDE4 evrything has to be a plasmoid looks like o Why not innovate in something that really matters and really improves productivity? Why not instead of be wo worried about looking cool try something for fast work, Work in something smart, something that will really improve users work's, not some silly folder view or plasma themes.
How about improving the way to write a mail or communicate? I mean, something that really enpower users, If work activities and folder view are the visions KDE developers had in 2004 I must say that is already obsolete and doesn't fix any problem.
Hi Aaron, I almost closed this window but then I thought, you know what, sometimes its just nice when someone tells you, "hey, we think you're great". What you and the whole KDE team are doing is greatly appreciated and respected. Your vision, hard work, energy and dedication are inspiring. I think just about every great project that has ever been undertaken has been attacked by the obligatory naysayers. People will complain no matter what you do. But I for one am eagerly awaiting the official 4.1 release. *hugs* :)
Ramsees: how exactly is the ui "bad"? You said that it looks cool, and that is a positive quality. Somwthing that is pretty is better than something that is ugly, everything else being equal. You still have the right mouse-button like you have with traditional desktop. So what exactly has changed? The fact that the icons are in a separate area? Well, is that bad on itself? And what would you do to distinguish the fact you are in fact viewing different folders?
And still, if you want something similar to how kde3, you can have it. So what's the problem???? You still haven't provides any tangible examples how this new setup is worse than the old system. Only thing we get is vague comments on how the ui is "bad", how it "only looks cool while providing no new functionality" and so forth. Please give constructive feedback as opposed to vague whining.
Ramesses: seriously, you honestly couldn't sound any more discouraging even if you tried! Constant whining and discouragemt! Constant shooting down ideas (before trying them out, naturally) and being a wet blanket. And when you do acknowledge that there might be a cohesive vision behind all these changes you comment "it must be obsolete by now". In that case the "vision" MacOS, windows and gnome has is downright antiquated, since their idea dates back to the seventies!
Seriously: if you have nothing constructive to say (as opposed to just whining), then maybe you should just stfu. Seriously. Constant whining can get very tiresome and stressfull and it achieves nothing positive. Don't like improved and more powerful features? Write your own damn desktop then. Me? I will be waiting for kde 4.1 with bated breath, since I think that Aaron and co. Are doing kick-ass job. Do I agree with everything they have done? Of course not. But I'd like to think that my feedback has been constructive, as opposed to just being annoying whining.
:)
Janne just wrote the post of the month!!
I agree 100%.
P.S.: Janne, are verbatim copies of your post allowed? ;) ( That posting might be really handy in a lot of blog comments. Especially for a non-native speaker like me. )
@Jane: Ramesses is from the GNOME camp. He doesn't want KDE to innovate so that his desktop won't fall too far behind =). So he takes it upon himself to discourage advancements in KDE.
@Ramesses: you obviously don't see the enormous potential of what is being done. Do yourself a favor and find out the advantages and new possibilities being developed with this framework.
You're better off watching, listening and staying quiet, so that you might learn something and not speak out of ignorance. Remember, its better to be quiet and be thought of as a fool, than opening your mouth and removing all doubt.
Joseph
Feel free to reuse my comments if you want to :). It's not like they are copyrighted or something ;).
Continue your revolutions KDE-team ..
btw.. I can't wait to switch to KDE 4.1 beta so that I can report bugs as much as I can :D
I am currently on 4.0.5.. if 4.1 is more stable then please assure me it is so that I will make the switch. :)
Janne, I've stayed quiet for a while, when everybody was complainig about the file view I was quiet and thinking trying it first before talking, so Im going to summarise my point one more time.
Folder view is ok, but is not for me, I like the old behavior, If that behavior is easy to reproduce then hurray, I'll be happy. I don't know yet, cause I need to try the latest commit, Im not the guy who spend his life compiling every new commit .
My other point is that the plasma is overshow, we get it, we know what it is, lets see some funcionality now, Lets see the reason people like me should use it, people who likes to work in a flow, not spend their time watching how good looking is desktop is.
Show how would be easier to send an e-mail compared to OSX, show how would be more usable than GNOME because the options are more on hand, show the potencial with real life issues, enough plasma,enough themes, no more eye candy, show now the productivity.
Let's change the "KDE4, the desktop that looks good with "KDE4, the desktop that makes you productive", I've used KDE3 I know how productive you can get once you configure it, Im waiting for the same in KDE4.
Have you see how apple introduce a new version of OSX? how practical? with real use cases?
Now, lets see KDE4 with those use cases, I mean, something "Here is the folder view and is better than the tradicional way because of this", not the "Here is the new Folder view use it if it feets you, we really don't know what is its goal."
That's what's makes me wonder where is the KDE marketing team.
I wan't to help, I have some ideas, I don't want to be a complainer, Im planning to make a demo of the concepts I like and show it, if you like then lets work together to make it more perfect. If not, well, at least I tried.
Ramsees:
For example: With folderview you can have a view of multiple FTP upload or ssh home directories on different servers etc.
It is just a new powerful tool you have to have your own ideas and some imagination to use it. If you lack those it will not help you much.
KDE4 will give you a lot of old and some new tools. How you combine those to be more productive is mostly upto you.
I just wanted to say this: since I first knew of KDE4 and Plasma I thought "Well, It looks we are going to have a change in paradigm".
For obvious reasons, this was both scary and exciting.
Today I'm certain: KDE4/Plasma is one of the most important paradigm changes in Desktop Management in many years. I don't think many people realize how big this is (most are still drewling on the "Wow!! Preetty!!!" side of things!) and how big this will be in a few years... and it's beeing done by the open source community.
Oh my god! It's full of stars... :)
Ramsees
"Folder view is ok, but is not for me, I like the old behavior, If that behavior is easy to reproduce then hurray, I'll be happy."
Well, apparently it is. And why do you like the old system? This new system does the same thing, it just does it better with more features.
"no more eye candy, show now the productivity."
That comment is a sign of another thing that annoys me. The idea that creating good artwork (in this case) means that less time is being spent doing other things. The artwork is created by the artists, features and functionality are created by the coders. As you probably realized by now, those two are two different groups. Are you now suggesting that the artists start twiddling their thumbs while coders code? Why? What would that accomplish? It would not help the coders code one bit faster.
And why do you think that looking good is a negative quality in software? If you want ugly software, why not stick to Motif?
Besides, the improvements to productivity should be obvious by now. Old system was inflexible and featureless. This new system offers flexibility and features. And you STILL haven't told how this new system is worse than the old one! You just keep on saying "because it is!" while providing zero tangible examples how the old system is better than this new system! How can you say that it's worse wen you can't even name any examples of what makes it worse? You talk much, but you don't actually say anything.
To recap: What was the old system? Well, it was a desktop on which you could place icons on. Nothing more, nothing less. And, according to you, that is A LOT better than this new system. Well, what is this new system then? It's a desktop on which you can place icons on. But the difference is that you can now have icons from several folders. And those icons can be filtered. They can be on remote servers. You can tie KIO-slaves to them. In the future they can be automated to only show stuff that is relevant to the thing you are doing. The possibilities are huge.
Yet here you are claiming that the old system is better. The old system that offered a fraction of the power and flexibility that this new system offers.
"Have you see how apple introduce a new version of OSX? how practical? with real use cases?"
I'm typing this on OS X, so I let you guess what the answer is.
"Now, lets see KDE4 with those use cases, I mean, something "Here is the folder view and is better than the tradicional way because of this"
Here is the folder-view, and it is better because now you can display icons from several folders, as opposed to just from your desktop-folder. You can also tie filters to the view, so it only displays certain type of files. You can also tie KIO-slaves to the view, opening possibilities to whole new features that were impossible previously. This feature also creates the groundwork for future advances, like tying Nepomuk-searches to the view, so you can tell it to only display files the meet certain criteria. Also, this new system allows for automation, so it will display stuff that is relevant to the things you are doing at the moment, making you more productive.
And the thing is, that's just the tip of the iceberg. The only thing the old system did was to show icons that you had manually dragged to the desktop. It required hand-holding from the user.
"I wan't to help"
To me it seems that what you want to do, is to ruin this thing for the rest of us. You are a wet blanket, a killjoy. Instead of encouraging, you say stuff like "It must be obsolete by now", "it's terrible, but nice try" (that's the nicest thing you have managed to say here). What exactly are you trying to achieve with that? Are you TRYING to make the coders quit the project in disgust?
"I don't want to be a complainer"
Yet that is all you have done so far. Only thing we have heard from you is complaining and whining. How about some constructive feedback? Nope. Tangible examples on how things could be done better? Nope. Just whining. Endless whining.
Re folderview complaints, or lack of legacy file/folder metaphor on the desktop... the points I am not satisfied with are mainly that the icons cannot be persistently positioned, clicking on a folder launches another application rather than open up that new folder within the current folderview and that it's not possible to make the folderview full screen so there is no unnecessary chrome clutter. It's still early days and the folderview is promising but at the moment I agree with ramsees that it's not as useful as the old kde3 desktop for managing files and folders.
Also, to me (my goodness, am I allowed to have an opinion!) the plasmoid expansion button in the top left corner, and the way it behaves, is obviously different to normal window grips and how they behave. I'm struggling to get used to the way of making plasmoids larger and smaller. Zooming the contents while expanding the plasmoid window is a bit of a shock, especially they when they are out of proportion.
If rabid kde4 supporters have to be so vitriolic and despotic towards anyone criticizing plasma, especially when not using their native language, then I really begin to feel sorry for the project as a whole.
"the points I am not satisfied with are mainly that the icons cannot be persistently positioned"
Are you saying that the icons/folders and/or the folderview-plasmoids keep moving around?
"clicking on a folder launches another application rather than open up that new folder within the current folderview"
That might actually be a useful feature. But then again, if you are advocating the KDE3-approach, then I fail to see how you can see this as a drawback, since the current functionality is how KDE3 works. If you open a folder on your KDE3-desktop, it opens a filemanager, does it not?
"I agree with ramsees that it's not as useful as the old kde3 desktop for managing files and folders."
Um, it does everything the KDE-system does and more. What exactly does KDE3-desktop has that KDE4-folderview does not have? Could we FINALLY have some tangible examples?
And what makes you think that you should be using your DESKTOP for "managing files and folders"? Desktop is not a filemanager, there are specific tools designed for filemanagent.
"If rabid kde4 supporters have to be so vitriolic and despotic towards anyone criticizing plasma"
That "vitriol" manifests itself when dealing with comments that are rude and ignorant and that keep on repeating same things over and over again. Constructive criticism is more than welcome. But emotional rants based on ignorance are not.
"especially when not using their native language"
English is not my native language either.
"then I really begin to feel sorry for the project as a whole."
If the criticism is constructive, it's more than welcome. If it's just emotional ranting full of FUD, then it serves no useful purpose. Hell, just look at the "discussion" this change has generated. It started when ignorant people thought that "KDE4.1 wont support icons on the desktop!", and no matter several people tried to educate those people, it was all in vain. they kept on displaying their ignorance and not listening when someone told them that "you are wrong". It gets very tiresome very fast.
You seem to have this strange idea that KDE-developers are somehow required to simply smile and accept all the shit that gets poured on them by people who are obviously 100% ignorant on the thing they are talking about. KDE-developers are just humans, after all. If people start pouring shit on them for no good reason, they will get annoyed.
And FYI: I'm not speaking for the KDE-project, I'm not member of the project.
No, I am saying the internal folderview icons cannot be positioned, ie; folders on the left and files on the right like how I could do with the kde3 desktop.
A folderview shows files and folders so it would seem natural, to me, that clicking on a folder would then show the new folder contents within the same folderview window... just like how konq/dolphin behave now.
I also struggle to convince myself that the current plasma "chrome" and management is somehow better than a traditional window. Some part of what I think I understand plasmoids and activities are meant to do could also (at least partially) be achieved in kde3 by having "active folders" which autorun a shell script. If that existed then I could have clicked on a folder icon and have any mount of custom "activities" pour forth.
Beside, what makes *you* think I should not use my desktop as a file manager and application launcher in the traditional sense like I have been for the last 10 years! (that's a statement, not a question)
Sure, plasma WILL offer superior desktop experience, and it's starting to get there, but right now an important aspect of how a traditional desktop works is simply not there for new users coming from kde3.
I have never suggested the new plasma desktop approach is bad, what I have been critical of is ripping out the old kde3-like files/folder management option from the most precious real-estate a user has without something to take it's place until the full plasma dream is realized. The fact that this issue seems to raise so much heated debate tends to vindicate my point.
@markc:
Don't you think it is kind of rude to demand each and every little feature KDE3 offered to be implemented in a _major_ rewrite of the whole desktop.
Rome was not build in one day you know.
KDE4 will offer everything KDE3 had and much much more. But why do you exspect it to have every little tweak your change hating brain is acustomed to right from the start??
IMHO spoiled KDE3 users like should just STFU and be more thankful for all the work they get _for free_.
All you contribute is prolly whining like "My icons cannot be resized" in a brandnew feature. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.
"A folderview shows files and folders so it would seem natural, to me, that clicking on a folder would then show the new folder contents within the same folderview window... just like how konq/dolphin behave now."
The folderview behaves like desktop in KDE3 behaves: it opens a filemanager. If you think that the behavior in KDE4 is bad, then you must also think that the behavior in KDe3 is bad as well.
"I also struggle to convince myself that the current plasma "chrome" and management is somehow better than a traditional window."
For the things plasmoids are meant to handle, it IS better. For the things traditional windows are meant to handle, traditional windows are better. If I wanted window showing my files and folders, I would launch Dolphin.
"Some part of what I think I understand plasmoids and activities are meant to do could also (at least partially) be achieved in kde3 by having "active folders" which autorun a shell script."
So, you expect users to start handcrafting shell-scripts? I have used Linux for years, and shell-scripts are utterly beyond me.
"Beside, what makes *you* think I should not use my desktop as a file manager and application launcher in the traditional sense like I have been for the last 10 years"
I think you are confused just what "filemanagement" means. Simply having a bunch of fles and folder on your desktop and opening them with the mouse is not "filemanagement as such. But if you DO understand what "filemanagement" is and you use your desktop for that task, then I can't help but feel that you are using the wrong tool for the job.
And I fail to see the problem here: what you just described is perfectly doable with folderviews. Could you educate me on this matter a bit?
"Sure, plasma WILL offer superior desktop experience, and it's starting to get there, but right now an important aspect of how a traditional desktop works is simply not there for new users coming from kde3"
let me ask you this once and for all: WHAT EXACTLY IS MISSING?. I have over and over again asked for tangible examples of things that are missing and/or work better in KDE3, yet no-one has come up with even ONE such example! Please: surprise me. Give me tangible examples of things that are missing or that work better in KDE3. No, "it just doesn't work!" is not good enough.
"what I have been critical of is ripping out the old kde3-like files/folder management option from the most precious real-estate a user has without something to take it's place until the full plasma dream is realized."
But there is something to take it's place: folderview! Sheesh...
"The fact that this issue seems to raise so much heated debate tends to vindicate my point."
The fact that this issue generates so much heated debate illustrates the fact that people have zero clue what they are talking about... They just run around like headless chickens, thinking that they can't have any icons on their KDE4-desktop, when nothing could be further from the truth.
"The folderview behaves like desktop in KDE3 behaves:"
Simple experiment, open up a konq/dolphin window the same size as a folderview window, viewing the same folder, and put them side by side, now click on a folder in each and see for yourself the difference.
"WHAT EXACTLY IS MISSING?"
The ability to have a kde3-desktop-like edge to edge view (ie; no chrome) where I can position FILE and FOLDER icons anywhere within that view, folders on the left, documents on the right, program launchers along the top, whatever, *AS WELL AS* plasmoids in a different desktop view.
That's my personal wish and if an experienced kde developer cared to mentor me I would spend the time trying to implmenent just such a view using Dolphin as a base.
I *ALSO* happen to believe it's the lack of such an interface that has caused the most criticism of kde4 and if such a thing existed then at least half of the complaints, that I am aware of, would never have been raised in the first place.
@markc: "a kde3-desktop-like edge to edge view (ie; no chrome) where I can position FILE and FOLDER icons anywhere within that view, folders on the left, documents on the right, program launchers along the top, whatever, *AS WELL AS* plasmoids in a different desktop view."
that is exactly what is there.
since a picture didn't help you to understand that, i'll be doing a screen cast tomorrow. if you don't understand a video of it, i don't know what i can do.
a road show? ;-P
"it's the lack of such an interface that has caused the most criticism of kde4 and if such a thing existed then at least half of the complaints, that I am aware of, would never have been raised in the first place."
half the criticisms this week. but not half the criticisms of the month before, etc.
you're a bit caught in the moment here.
or need i remind you of the "classic menu versus kickoff" bruhaha that was similarly inane?
or the "konqueror is being removed!" meme?
or ....
no, this is just the complaint de jour. and they get tiring because none of them are particularly accurate, and the saw you are going on about is absolutely *wrong*
in 4.0 we had a semblance of desktop icons.
in 4.1 we're bringing something better, including what you opine for above.
just watch tomorrow's screen cast, then feel free to offer humble pie in the comments on my blog.
markc:
Simple experiment:
:: A
1) open KDE 3.x;
2) click on a file icon on your Desktop;
3) see what happens;
:: B
1) open KDE 4.1;
2) click on a file icon on your Desktop Folderview;
3) see what happens;
Folderview is NOT a WINDOW like a Dolphin or Konquerour window: is a SPACE in your Desktop. If you want, you can ENLARGE that SPACE to fill ALL your DESKTOP, so that it looks like your KDE 3.x desktop.
Tip: when you suggest experiments to compare something, be correct with what you are comparing.
@Janne,
I can think of three things that KDE3.x could do that the folderview can not (in beta 1 that is, they're on the roadmap to be available in 4.1 final AFAIK):
1. With a folderview you can not right click on an icon to get the context menu. Already implemented if you go by screenshots.
2. If you have a large enough folderview plasmoid (say one that covers most of the screen) and move the icons around to have, for example, a couple of folders at the top-left and your word-docs at the top-right, their locations are not saved.
Hm, okay. That was only two and those are soon fixed if they are not already (I am totally incapable of compiling KDE from source so I have to wait for 4.1 beta2 to be available as binary packages to try).
There are some other minor issues as well but I'm sure they're being worked on (the main one is probably that you don't get a scrollbar or an automatically expanding plasmoid if the contents do not fit in its size).
And I don't understand why some people complain that the folderview is cluttering the desktop...that's theme dependent. I use the glassified theme and it's completely invisible. For example, this is my desktop (scaled down though):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/KalleKula/kde4/snapshot1.png
All icons on the right-hand side are folderviews.
Apart from those minor niggles, the folderview is FAR superior to the old method. And the new power folderview gives you more than makes up for those niggles even if they were to be considered won't-fix issues (which they are not, so for those worried about it be assured that the folderview vs the old method will soonish be a moot point - and the naysayers will hopefully come to realize they made a mountain out of nothing).
Finally, I think the comparison with MacOS X is unfair. Good as that OS may be (I'm not familiar enough with it to say how good or bad it is), it is impossible to say how good it is/was in between the major releases since, as a rule of thumb, most people do not see what state it is in before it is considered out-of-beta. Everyone can, however, see KDE even when a certain feature or the DE as a whole is in alpha-state even. That's both for good and bad (mostly good), but what I am trying to say is: don't compare the final version of Leopard to a KDE 4.1 BETA. If you're gonna compare, wait until 4.1 is considered to be the final release at the end of July.
MarkC
"Simple experiment, open up a konq/dolphin window the same size as a folderview window, viewing the same folder, and put them side by side, now click on a folder in each and see for yourself the difference."
Can't try that ATM, but am I correct when I say that opening folder in folderview opens a filemanger-window? Isn't that 100% identical to the way KDE3 behaves?
"The ability to have a kde3-desktop-like edge to edge view (ie; no chrome) where I can position FILE and FOLDER icons anywhere within that view, folders on the left, documents on the right, program launchers along the top, whatever, *AS WELL AS* plasmoids in a different desktop view."
Thank you for making it obvious that the problem is that you do not understand the thing we are discussing here. Hell, there was a screenshot of KDE4-desktop that was absolutely FULL of icons! What more do you want?
@Janne,
"Can't try that ATM, but am I correct when I say that opening folder in folderview opens a filemanger-window? Isn't that 100% identical to the way KDE3 behaves?"
That's indeed exactly what happens. And not only identical to the way KDE3 behaves, but every other DE I've ever used.
I think we could keep everyone happy by having a "Desktop Drawer" folderview that slides in from an edge of the screen when a tab on the edge (or the corner, lihe the cashew) is pressed. It's an easy concept to understand and it'd have all the ease of use of a traditional desktop, but it'd free the rest of the wallpaper when the Desktop Drawer is closed. Easy.
Many of the above comments are about how to view existing files "on my desktop." I have a different question about "desktop files" (or whatever the folder should be).
With Plasma, will there be a better way to automatically organize files either as they are downloaded or after they are downloaded?
Use Case
Usually, when I try to help someone who does not know much about computers, I find that they have trouble knowing both where their files are downloaded to and where any other saved files are.
If Plasma/Nepomuk/whatever handle the following that would be awesome:
User does not know where default save location is for application. User does not know where default save location is for downloaded files.
However, Plasma/Nepomuk/whatever automatically organizes pictures into virtual picture folder, text documents into virtual text document folder, etc.
I imagine someone can manually create filters or whatever is necessary for this to happen. Will there be any filters like this out of the box, though?
Thanks for the good work.
nathan:
Sure if they use Konqueror and it adds Nepomuk metadata to downloaded files you can search for those and show them in a folderview.
@leandroribeiro and @janne: I said open up a FOLDER for the comparison. The folderview click opens up a new application (dolhpin), the dolphin folder click shows the new folder contents within the same window without the disconnect of opening a new application.
@aaron: your screenshot does not show any hint or example of being able to postition folderview items. However, when I actually tried it, it does allow for
positioning folderview items. Excellent! However2, they are, sadly, still not persistent when restarting plasma, let alone rebooting, so the file/folder positioning feature is still useless from an end users point of view. It is fantastic there is another step along the path of providing a kde3 file/folder desktop facsimile.
I'll stand by what I said about half the negative comments *I have seen*, all during this current year, basically revolve around the lack of the general kde3 file/folder desktop behavior. The other half being a mixture of what aaron has pointed out.
Guys, I am not out to dis kde4 or the folks who are doing all the hard yards and putting in such a fine effort the rest of us can take advantage of. I have just honestly suggested what I think are the weak points that I have noticed.
markc:
«I said open up a FOLDER for the comparison.»
I know that you said that, but that is not the comparison you should be making - ence my reply. Lets go step by step so that you can bury this subject:
1) You said that desktop icon behaviour was different from folderview icon behaviour.
2) Such is not true. Why? Because both with Desktop icons and with Folderview icons, double clicking calls out Dolphin (or whatever file browser you use)
Is this false?
3) Now you are saying that using folderview is different from using dolphin - and that is true and should be true. Why?
4) Because folderview IS NOT a file browser - is a Desktop space that shows you the contents of a given folder, even the Desktop folder.
5) Conclusion: you should compare folderview with traditional desktop icon behaviour, but comparing folderview with dolphin does not make sense!
If this is still unclear to you, then I don't know what to do :)
«However2, they are, sadly, still not persistent when restarting plasma,»
If you listen carefully when watching the videocast, you will notice a ghostly voice saying something like: "the icons position is lost when restarting Plasma, but that is something we're working on and should be ready when the final 4.1 release is out". However I've been told that not everyone can listen to this part. The ghost chooses wisely the ones with which he shares is knowledge :|
@leandroribeiro: "I know that you said that, but that is not the comparison you should be making"
But it is the comparison I made. The folderview is a window view, not a complete edge-to-edge desktop view, so therefor I see it as a comparison to a konq/dolphin window already open on a view of a folder hence my example of putting an open dolphin window side by side with a folderview.
You are welcome to your interpretation. As for the video, I haven't even seen it yet. I am responding to comments reposted to my gmail account.
Regardless of minutea point scoring, my main point is that if there was a decent viable and current kde3 file/folder desktop facility available that a "significant number" (there, is that vague enough) of new kde4 adopter complaints would not exist.
I've repeated myself a couple of times about this general point so I will refrain from any further comment and go watch that screencast.
Okay, video watched and all I can say is "wow", fscking fantastic and job well done. We will have a usable kde3 file/folder facsimile as soon as file positioning is persistent which should be very soon by the sounds of it.
All anyone had to do is simply say "edit ~/.kde/share/config/plasma-appletsrc and change the first plugin=desktop to plugin=folderview" and I, for one, would have done it straight away and got it.
I'm not sure who is responsible for the desktop wide folderview code but seeing this is aarons blog I'll say a hearty thank you to aaron.
@marc: you're welcome =)
this is part of the architectural framework of plasma, btw. we can take *any* widget and turn it into a full screen monster with ~2 lines of code, just as that video showed with folderview.
i just wish all the rhetoric could've been avoided in the first place, and now that you see exactly what we've been up to i suppose it's obvious that it well could have and should have been avoided.
Brilliant stuff, kudos to all involved.
I can honestly say seeing that video was one of the most exciting things I've seen happen to kde4 and plasma.
Another way of looking at all the "rhetoric" is that for those who dismissed anyone who dared criticize kde4 for not providing a kde3-like desktop facility, suggesting the likes of us "low life should go back to kde3 where you belong" (my paraphrase), that they now have egg on their faces and the said critics have been vindicated as we now indeed (almost, rsn) do have that coveted kde-like file/folder system.
In all of the often bitter comments against those who lamented the lack of the traditional kde3 desktop functionality I don't recall anyone clearly articulating that we will indeed have that kde3 desktop facility back by 4.1.
I'm just relieved I'll be able to configure a new kde4 install to at least look and function like a kde3 desktop so that I don't have to put up with the same complaints you guys have :-)
@markc: "those who dismissed anyone who dared criticize kde4"
i don't think many of those who were complaining about things realized just how bad it sounded. it didn't come across as constructive criticism at all, but rather as very loud shouting from people who weren't listening.
it would be great, now that the dust has settled, if everyone learns from this.
"they now have egg on their faces and the said critics have been vindicated as we now indeed (almost, rsn) do have that coveted kde-like file/folder system."
see what i mean? this doesn't help *at all*. especially since this feature set was in the plan *2 years* ago and what was being said to people such as yourself is that "it is coming", yet the critics said "not good enough" or even worse "no it isn't!".
so instead of saying people have egg on their face and trying to make it seem like some sort of great victory for one "side" or the other, please consider that we really ought to be *on the same team* in the first place.
it's precisely this kind of back biting that tires me out.
can we somehow get past this way of interacting?
"I don't recall anyone clearly articulating that we will indeed have that kde3 desktop facility back by 4.1."
i actually said it fairly clearly several times. unfortunately, those who had decided that the sky was descending and KDE4 was doomed were not exactly listening anymore.
it took me three blog postings, numerous mails to various mailing lists and several conversations with various bloggers to finally communicate it.
that's insane.
"I'm just relieved I'll be able to configure a new kde4 install to at least look and function like a kde3 desktop"
and i'm happy that you're relieved. =)
@markc:
Actually, it was already explained in this blog post from may 22 (nearly a month ago): http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/05/no-more-desktop-icons-in-41.html
I guess many people didn't understand because of language limitations or getting too worked up over the title of that blog post, but as long as you get it, I'm glad. I hope others get it as well.
Post a Comment