Monday, March 03, 2008

fixing versus working around problems

At times people will come to me, or the Plasma project in general, with a request to work around a problem. One such request we've gotten a few times recently is to be able to turn off the desktop toolbox. The immediate question I have is, "Why?" and my immediate response to a request to do such a thing without an explanation of the pain points is, "No."

Here's why: usually if the pain points are identified they can be addressed. Personally, I'd rather fix things than simply work around them. Why? Well, besides resulting in a better product in the long run (which should be enough on its own) this prevent the accumulation of configuration options and code paths that exist only to work around problems. That's a bit like putting corks on the end of all the forks in the house because poking yourself in the eye with one hurts. Instead of corking your forks, maybe you should be asking yourself, "Why do I keep poking myself in the eye with them?" If you can answer that question, maybe you'll find a fix that doesn't render the forks in the house more cumbersome to use.

There is an annoying reality to be dealt with, however: not all fixes will happen immediately.

This fact leads sometimes to the suggestion that a short term solution should be thrown in for the interim. The problem with this idea is that these "short term" solutions way too often become long term bodges. Worse is when the problem actually gets fixed, but we can't remove that "temporary" solution because someone has decided they really, really need it (often they don't, they've just gotten used to it being there... change == bad, after all).

Even worse, when it's a work-around what usually ends up happening is that we stop getting feedback and testing from those who felt that particular pain in the first place. The two-fold downside here is that (a) Plasma developers don't know when the issue is actually fixed (or not) and (b) those users end up getting shorted when their pain point is addressed because they probably will stick with the work-around out of inertia. Why bother writing software in the first place if it doesn't get used, right?

So when coming to us with a paint point, instead of proposing a solution (e.g. "Let me turn off the toolbox") explain what the pain points are.

Karol Szwed described (one of?) his paint points with the toolbox as "Whenever I close a maximized window, it animates. That's visually distracting and annoying for me." Now that is feedback I can work with, and I fixed that issue today. Turns out it was a pretty trivial thing to fix actually (we now check to see if the hover event that was triggered happened from crossing the threshold area of the toolbox; this prevents spontaneous hovers that happen in the main target area of the box from triggering activity, which is what happens in the window close case).

I'm interested now to hear from Karol if he finds the toolbox OK or even just better now. Hopefully the answer will be "yes", but maybe it'll be "not yet satisfying, though this is better". If that's the case, then we'll get on to the next set of pain points.

Only once we have arrived at a set of non-resolvable pain points is it a valid proposal to start working around them. And yes, I recognize that there are non-resolvable pain points, even if due only to people's differences in personal tastes. That is when we start bringing in the options; and if we can we try and come up with a passive configuration mechanism.

We're not there yet with the desktop toolbox, though. The next set of fixes is allowing the position of it to be changed (e.g. different corners, edge middles, ...). This requires making the painting code more generic (it assumes the top left corner; that stupidity is the fault of my own lazyness combined with time pressure pre-4.0... not overly hard to fix, though). Once that's done, then we'll see what pain points remain.

It's surprising how often by just chipping away at paint point after pain point, a feature at some point "suddenly" becomes not only palatable but has perceived value.

Under the category of "dealing with Aaron 'The Psycho' Seigo" (that's my wrestling stage name): it's also great if you don't try to cleverly convince me that your proposed solution addresses a real problem through fanciful argumentation. It may be a personal foible of mine (probably is) but if you try and BS me, I'm more apt to just ignore you. Nobody's perfect.

So, for instance, some individuals claimed that the toolbox interfered with their ability to close windows. This is obviously untrue since it lives beneath all windows. Instead of searching for additional reasons I should care (e.g. by construing a "usability problem" that isn't your pain point, and this case is just plain bogus), simply describe the symptoms of the problem much like Karol did. Your "job" isn't to convince me, it's to explain the problem. I'll believe you have a problem if you just say what it is. Then I'll try and come up with a solution (often with requests for further feedback from you on it). No exercising of your extreme cleverness is required.

This is really a lot like the doctor and patient relationship: as a patient your job is to accurately describe the symptoms. If you start trying to offer diagnoses you're going to at best be wasting the doctor's time and at worst throw the doctor onto the wrong track as he might interpret your self-diagnosis as an explanation of the symptoms. Even if you're a doctor, you're probably still best served by explaining the symptoms (though you'll probably do a much better job of that than your average patient): the diagnostician's specialties may be different from yours and their subjectivity is invaluable.

Of course, we are still left with the issue of "not all outstanding issues will be fixed immediately". The question I have to ask myself is if it is better to write software that will still be useful in 10 years time or if I'd rather smooth over (often rather minor) inconveniences today. I personally don't want to do a rewrite of the desktop shell again. Ever. So while I do bow to pragmatism whenever plausible, I'm also trying to prioritize the future so that we don't end up with another kicker, which is to say: a great app that just can't be budged further, resulting in the loss of so much of the effort that went into it.

Given how far we're getting between 4.0 and 4.1 (not to mention the backporting we've done), it seems we're going fast enough that we can afford to lean a bit more towards "future benefits" than if the project was moving at a slower pace.

33 comments:

Anonymous said...

Well have you ever considered that perhaps that when people are asking to remove it, it has nothing to do with whether its good enough or not; they simply don't need it and therefore want it out of the way?

My preferred solution would be to hide it when the desktop is locked and show it when the desktop is unlocked...because I find it perfect as it is: WHEN I NEED IT. Don't want any changes to it, I just want it out of the way when I don't need it. Perhaps an option that says "hide desktop toolbox when desktop is locked"? This would give both you and the users whom complain their will.

I truly do respect you and your work Aaron, but it looks to me like this particular issue has become a matter of internal consistency rather than looking at what is wanted...

PS: Don't want step on your toes. Take this for what it is: Just an opinion from someone that loves KDE and wish the best for it.

JakubS said...

What about 'because my desktop looks better without this thing' reason?

Anonymous said...

"What about 'because my desktop looks better without this thing' reason?"

For the same reason that while the desktop looks better without a panel, we use panels. The reason is certain functionality. The functionality of the toolbox has not been fully introduced, yet. However, its being there makes bugs visible and gets them fixed.

Riothamus said...

Well, not to go against the stream here, but I like the toolbox. I love the idea of it having a configurable position though. I never noticed it opening up when I try to close a window before so I tried it out on Kubuntu with opening up Konquerer and a few other windows maximized. I ran my mouse all the way up into the far top right corner and the toolbox never showed. So perhaps the user's window isn't truly maximized?

knue said...

First of all: I really like kde4 and plasma. But I thought one major design goal of plasma was that things can be done without much pain and don't end up like kicker. Turning off the desktop toolbox just does not sound that complicated to me. Is there really no config file X where option Y must be set to Z?
Otherwise it would be a bit strange, that you can cook coffee with plasma but turning off the desktop toolbox is a no go. I also think my desktop would look nicer without the toolbox.

KAMiKAZOW said...

Is there anything the toolbox can do that a simple right-click on the desktop can't

daz said...

And the target audience is ?????????

Leo S said...

@KAMiKAZOW It holds the zoom out/in buttons which are not in the right click menu.

Aaron knows my perspective on that, but regardless of their current usefulness, the desktop toolbox will presumably become more and more useful as the development progresses. I see that having the option to disable it now would kind of shoot any improved version in the leg for the future. Users will disable it now, and when more features arrive they will never even notice.

Aaron J. Seigo said...

first, i'd like to say that the toolbox is a nice example case. the point of the blog entry is to reflect on the general class of issues.

@anonymous: "they simply don't need it and therefore want it out of the way?"

at the point that this decision can actually be made, then sure. right now i don't think you have the information there to make such a decision and this little bit of unobtrusive screen usage does not hinder people.

"hide it when the desktop is locked"

see, this isn't the only use for it. it actually does have other actions in it when the desktop is locked, and those actions will become useful in 4.1.

"this particular issue has become a matter of internal consistency rather than looking at what is wanted..."

and what i'm saying is that right now with this particular feature the end user is not in a place to know what they want. that's the inappropriate self-diagnosis i referred to.

it's a well known phenom that people are really bad at judging the solutions to their usability problems. in this case, it's a lack of information (the cause of that is feature incompleteness, so i'm not blaming anyone =).

users are, however, really good at describing the pain points.

@jakubs: "What about 'because my desktop looks better without this thing' reason?"

good example. what if we could make it look good enough that you were happy with it? that's the first goal to shoot for. if we can't manage that, then we look at more drastic measures such as a user-facing configuration option.

note that i've actually rejected 3 patches now that simply turned it off with no configurability. those are really the short cut approaches.

@riothamus: "I love the idea of it having a configurable position though."

yeah, it's been on the hit list for a while now. i imagine we'll get to it for 4.1. it would also make a nice little "starter project" for someone.

@knue: "that things can be done without much pain and don't end up like kicker."

this is done by trying to be meticulous in the core. the externals then become much easier and carefree.

@KAMiKAZOW : "Is there anything the toolbox can do that a simple right-click on the desktop can't"

a) be discoverable
b) work nicely without a mouse (think of touch screens)

Anonymous said...

> For the same reason that while the desktop looks better without a panel, we use panels. The reason is certain functionality.

Which are actually hidable and from the aethetics point of view arrangend symmetrically on one or more sides of a screen.


@Aaron: At least you admitted in the middle of your rant, that you're part of the problem. Be friendly and part of the solution. It may cost a bit to conquest yourself, but it's exactly these silly things (and I speak about the plasma devs unwillingness here) you can piss off your userbase without any need. The slightly totalitary trip, telling the users what they have to like (no, this is not about technical aspects), is nonsense.

Aaron J. Seigo said...

@daz: "And the target audience is?"

for this blog entry? people offering feedback on software.

for the toolbox? people using plasma.

(i hope i covered all interpretations of that question and answered what you were trying to ask?)

@anonymous: "At least you admitted in the middle of your rant, that you're part of the problem."

yes, when people feed me BS, i don't like it. i'm not a really good enabler of other people's shenanigans. it would be easier for some people if i were, but i don't think it's reasonable to expect me to put up with that. maybe it would be nice if i did, but it would also be even nicer if people didn't try such tricks in the first place.

"Be friendly and part of the solution."

i think i am being friendly and part of the solution. though when i do try and be friendly and part of the solution, i deal with these kinds of retorts. maybe you'd like to consider your role in encouraging behaviour you'd like to see versus slapping someone in the face when they meet you half way? yeah.

"It may cost a bit to conquest yourself, but it's exactly these silly things (and I speak about the plasma devs unwillingness here) you can piss off your userbase without any need. The slightly totalitary trip, telling the users what they have to like (no, this is not about technical aspects), is nonsense."

you really need to read this blog entry again. this is precisely what i'm explaining: this is not about being totalitarian, telling the users what they want for no reason, etc. this is about meeting technical goals. i understand that some people don't get that. so i attempted to explain how it works in the blog entry.

apparently you didn't get that message from the text. perhaps i didn't say it clearly enough, maybe i confused you with too many details (i tend to do that) ... but it's there. try reading it again with that in mind and see if you can figure out what i'm sharing with you.

Anonymous said...

I dont like how it activates when I use the top right as a hot corner for my window manager's expose style feature. One thing that is perhaps bugish, though may have been fixed already (I have 4.0.1) is that if one hovers over the toolbox, then moves onto a window before leaving the hover area, the toolbox will remain open despite the fact that you are no longer hovering over it.

Aaron J. Seigo said...

"I dont like how it activates when I use the top right as a hot corner for my window manager's expose style feature."

making it movable should help resolve this.

"One thing that is perhaps bugish, though may have been fixed already (I have 4.0.1) is that if one hovers over the toolbox, then moves onto a window before leaving the hover area, the toolbox will remain open despite the fact that you are no longer hovering over it."

yes, i've noticed this too. it seems to be a bug in QGraphicsView: it doesn't pass hover out events when the mouse goes over a window. i'll have to look into it more to track down exactly where the problem is (we really push QGV to places it's maintainers never expect ;)

alecm said...

The reason I dislike the toolbox is because I don't like it covering the corner of my wallpaper. I like having the wallpaper covering my desktop and a panel at the bottom, with nothing else covering the edges of the screen.

I also feel that it is somewhat out of place - it does not fit in with my wallpaper, it does not look or act like a plasmoid, and it's not a panel. Whenever I look at kde4, that is one of the first things that pop out at me, and I don't think it should requite so much attention. While it might be nice to have it there so that a new user can discover it, I think it should be possible to make it invisible until I move the mouse over the corner. It should be just like auto-hiding of panels - you know they're there, you use them, but you don't see them until you need to.

Anonymous said...

Ok, I can understand why you made toolbox so visible.

By the way - I have 4.0.1, almost everything is good enough(tm) for me, but icons on desktop are "strange", and don't look right. Those transparent borders around them are disturbing (maybe because they have different sizes).

They are placed too far away from each other by default, also you cannot select many icons at once and drag them where you want - you must do this one at time.

I don't want to complain, only wanted to express my pain points :).

Keep up the good work, hope it will be fixed someday.

PS. Sorry for my English.

PS2. Drag and drop of items between "K-menu", panel and desktop could be nice.

Aaron J. Seigo said...

@anonymos: "I don't want to complain, only wanted to express my pain points :)."

and to me you did that perfectly. thank you =)

"PS2. Drag and drop of items between "K-menu", panel and desktop could be nice."

we just recently implemented this, so you will have it 4.1 (if we don't backport it in the meantime). huzzah! -=)

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: "they simply don't need it and therefore want it out of the way?"

@Aaron: "at the point that this decision can actually be made, then sure. right now i don't think you have the information there to make such a decision and this little bit of unobtrusive screen usage does not hinder people."

So basically you say that you know better what the user (that would be me) wants because you know more about what is to come? Let me explain how I use my desktop: No widgets, no nothing. One panel with only a taskbar and a K-menu. That is it. I like it clean. I don't like to look at my desktop and get the feeling that I should clean it because it looks dirty. More functionality just seem to escalate this problem, but I am not complaining about that because other users may want it, but I don't and therefore want to turn it off. If I wanted to give others control over what is good for me then I would stick to Gnome where that is not only an issue but the only way. I use KDE to choose myself, but you are saying that that won't happen because you know better then me.

@Anonymous: "hide it when the desktop is locked"

@Aaron: "see, this isn't the only use for it. it actually does have other actions in it when the desktop is locked, and those actions will become useful in 4.1."

I am looking forward to this, but I am not following your argument here: You shouldn't dictate what other want/need. If you are afraid people will disable it and therefore won't see new features then we found YOUR pain point. What if a lot of users are happy without these features and are much happier with the box hidden? Saying its good for touchscreen is not a good argument since most users don't use touchscreen.

If the features are any good you know they will be all over the news anyway. Its not like Linux/KDE is like windows where the users doesn't follow what is happening.

How I see this is that if enough users complain you will eventually have little left to say about the matter as distributions may start to patch it away themselves. Please, be a part of the solution rather than pushing your own internal consistency to a point where people feel trapped underneath someone else's authority saying what they should and should not like...that WAS one of KDE's greatest strengths over Gnome...was ...

Aaron J. Seigo said...

"you say that you know better what the user (that would be me) wants because you know more about what is to come"

no, i'm asking you to be a participant in the process rather than a whining consumer.

if you want to be a consumer, there are end user distros for you; in which case you are not *my* audience here on this blog. my audience is the people who are testers and users of development releases.

"you are saying that that won't happen because you know better then me."

that isn't what i've said at all. please, read the blog entry, drop your anger and understand what i've written.

"If you are afraid people will disable it and therefore won't see new features then we found YOUR pain point."

it's not fear; i explained this very clearly in the blog entry. this is about avoiding *bad* decisions and opting for proper solutions instead.

given your posturing on this issue, i'd expect you of all people to appreciate that.

"What if a lot of users are happy without these features and are much happier with the box hidden?"

i answered that in the blog entry itself.

"Saying its good for touchscreen is not a good argument since most users don't use touchscreen."

holy missing a central point! so if people aren't using touchscreens, but we won't be on such devices without appropriate features, but we can't develop those features without feedback, testing and work on those features. .... how do we beat the catch-22?

answer: doing what i'm doing.

please also remember that context menus are not discoverable or easily accessible while hover interfaces are.

also remember that this is not a point in isolation, but is combined with the other points as a cohesive whole.

"If the features are any good you know they will be all over the news anyway. Its not like Linux/KDE is like windows where the users doesn't follow what is happening."

a) i don't care about "the news"
b) you really underestimate the windows fan base. badly.

"How I see this is that if enough users complain you will eventually have little left to say about the matter as distributions may start to patch it away themselves."

a) distros have shipped it as is already
b) my target audience for these developments is the testing crowd, not the consumer crowd

"Please, be a part of the solution"

i am.

"rather than pushing your own internal consistency"

again, you're not getting the message. it has nothing to do with "internal consistency"

"to a point where people feel trapped underneath someone else's authority saying what they should and should not like..."

i'm saying we need participation and feedback. that's sort of the opposite of telling you what you should (or should not) like.

the key here is that only when the various features get a clear exercising and review can we polish them up to the point where we *know* where configuration is needed and it's not.

"that WAS one of KDE's greatest strengths over Gnome...was ..."

and you just lost all credibility. go compare kde3, kde4 and gnome2. go ahead, go look at the options, configurability, flexibility, future possibilities of each.

i'm saddened you feel the need to get angry and argue like this. because not only is it just plain unfounded, it's also fighting against the people who brought you in the past what you loved and are bringing you what you want as we progress with kde4?

(who do you think brought you so many of those beloved features in kicker, btw? yeah, that'd me. think about it.)

i'd also suggest that you've so totally blown this issue out of proportion, that perhaps you ought you step back and try and gain some perspective.

we've been *racing* to bring plasma to the point where you can do more than you'd ever want to. look at all the discouraging remarks made in the past and see the progress.

i'd suggest your best play is to stop fighting against those who are actually working to bring you what you want.

David said...

Hey Aaron, I don't find a use for the toolbox either atm, but I trust what you're going to do with it. Why can't everyone else!?

Rasi S said...

I have to admit, i have no clue, what the Zoom options are good for.
Whenever i use them, my active desktop gets smaller, but the rest of the screen is pure white.
While this is (i guess) not intended, i am looking forward tho, what features this thing will enable in the future.

shamaz said...

I'll tried to be the doctor and find a good medical treatment (yes, I've always liked playing the doctor).
So it seems that a common symptom is that people don't want to have a corner of their stunning wallpapers hidden.
I see 2 solutions :
- First one (might be painful...) : an ablation of http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/KDE/kdebase/workspace/wallpapers/ so that users stop having stunning wallpapers.
- The second one is to take 3 pills a day of "configurable auto-hide toolbox". If you want to let it easily discoverable, it can 'auto show' only if the user move his mouse above the top-right corner of the desktop.

So what do you think Doctor Seigo ?

Anonymous said...

Hi Aaron, I really like all the work you're doing for KDE but I really think you're approach to issues like this toolbox are flawed.

Your primary defence for the toolbox is the user's don't know what it's really for so they aren't in a position to say it's unneeded. For the amount you seem to write on forums/blogs every week, I don't see why you couldn't just write a few paragraphs on what the real reason is then maybe we'd understand you better.

Imagine someone added an extra menu bar to an application for no obvious purpose but said the purpose would become clear. It's still going to annoy the users whether you're right or not. Your approach is guaranteed to just wind people up.

Not knowing what you're super top secret idea is, the only real point I can see is when you said: "please also remember that context menus are not discoverable or easily accessible while hover interfaces are". True, but there is an argument to be made about visual clutter caused by hover widgets that are rarely used. I fairly sure most users are going to use plasma to set their wallpaper, put down some weather widgets, add a clock to the taskbar etc. and leave it as that. For instance, I don't have an easily discoverable widget for configuring my network/soundcard/joypad/monitor/mouse etc. but that's OK because I don't need them often and sticking these under a general configuration tool is the obvious place to look. You could add widgets to the screen somewhere to access these options, but you have to weigh up visual clutter vs. usefulness. I think even novice users now know to right-click their desktop to configure it by now too. Right-click is discoverable too when you think of it; the general rule is "right-click on something to get options related to that thing".

I think the toolbox is more clutter than useful right now but you might be right about the usefulness when you tell us the future plans. Currently, it feels pointless to comment because you can always play the "you don't know everything card" which doesn't make my opinion feel valued.

Anonymous said...

My only pain point about toolbox is the consistency of look of my desktop. I often use very minimalistic desktop with black background, a little (1/4 of the screen) picture in the center and a panel at the buttom. Toolbox simply don't fit into this look.

Anonymous said...

@Aaron: "i'm saddened you feel the need to get angry and argue like this. because not only is it just plain unfounded, it's also fighting against the people who brought you in the past what you loved and are bringing you what you want as we progress with kde4?"

I am not angry...not at all...but you are obviously taking this personally, which it is definitely not. I will not say anything else about this matter after this comment. Not because I don't have anything to say, but because I don't want to upset you and by this further increase your "I'm right and all you guys can go screw yourselves because you don't know" attitute, and therefore never fix the issue that apparently is there SINCE PEOPLE COMPLAIN.

@Aaron: "(who do you think brought you so many of those beloved features in kicker, btw? yeah, that'd me. think about it.)"

Yes thank you for that, and as said I really admire your work, but that doesn't make your opinion superior to everyone else's...in that case you can just drop the whole community idea right away. However, you should note that not everyone complaining is people who doesn't contribute to the project...and not everyone is as clueless about how stuff works as you make it sound.

I do admire you and all the work you have done, but that doesn't make you the almighty führer that is always right. STOP TAKING THIS SO GOD DAMN PERSONALLY!

@Aaron: "i'd also suggest that you've so totally blown this issue out of proportion, that perhaps you ought you step back and try and gain some perspective."

I haven't blown anything out of proportion. You asked what the pain points were and you got lots of answers. The problem is that you didn't like the answers and therefore are using the "I know best" attitude and point fingers saying "all you do is whine". Well you are wrong, and all we do is not whine. However, I am not gonna post my CV saying "this, and this, and this says that I know better". Its so childish and remind me more of "my father is stronger than your father" arguments in kindergarden.

Seriously: Sit back and think for a second. WHY are you getting feedback on exactly this issue? Is it because people hate you? No they don't, and in an attempt to calm you down over this issue people keep stating that. Is it because people doesn't like your work? No they really do, and once again people keep stating that for each comment. Is it because this particular issue is a pain point (as you said)? Yes it is.

People are really trying to explain the issue while showing respect, but you keep throwing shit back in their faces, and I had just about enough of it. So don't fix the issue. Seriously...Do what you want...but you should start showing people the respect they show you. They give feedback because they care about KDE, and not because they want to flame you. Let me repeat that: The give feedback because they care!

It is not whining since its not one person writing the same thing 100 times. It is feedback because it is 100 people writing the same thing one time each. There is a big difference.

@Aaron: "we've been *racing* to bring plasma to the point where you can do more than you'd ever want to. look at all the discouraging remarks made in the past and see the progress."

You need to see the difference between plasma and one particular issue within plasma. I know you are the lead developer on Plasma, but that does not make any feedback you get an attack on you. It is FEEDBACK and god dammit, you even asked for feedback so don't be pissed when you get feedback. You don't have to fix anything, and I assume you wouldn't accept a patch if I fixed it either (and I would if I thought it would be accepted), so this is pointless.

Once again: Grateful for the effort, but you must understand that this is one little issue in a huge project that just about everyone really like. It is NOT about Plasma at all, nor is it about you. It is about ONE issue alone.

@Aaron: "i'd suggest your best play is to stop fighting against those who are actually working to bring you what you want."

1) Then don't ask for feedback as you did in this blog
2) Then listen to what we want
3) Seriously...you have any idea how fucked up that paragraph sounded?

Isn't this suppose to be a community effort? You didn't want feedback although you asked for it?

vf said...

I have gkrellm in my top right corner, something else in top left and a panel at bottom. There's simply no more free corners for toolbox in my desktop.

shamaz said...

mmm some people are getting a little bit too serious here...
May I suggest a little intermission ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYYY1I7kaAY

http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/10/31/moderator-kitteh-disapproves-ur-submishinz/

Anonymous said...

> maybe you'd like to consider your role in encouraging behaviour you'd like to see versus slapping someone in the face when they meet you half way? yeah.

Sometime it helps - even if it causes bad blood at first. And no - I didn't got the idea from your post, that you intended to meet somewhere in the middle. That's why my reply, as I wrote it, deemed necessary to me. Nontheless I'm grateful to some of your and others work over the years - Plasma (at least at the current state) excluded.


> you really need to read this blog entry again.

No. You didn't understand my reply. Second try below.


> telling the users what they want for no reason, etc. this is about meeting technical goals

What users do and want, does not need to match any technical goal. Heck, it may be even a technical, but inferior one or make it unreachable. You do not satisfy them by telling them otherwise. This is a social problem. Humans remain humans - even if they have to interact with sophisticated technology nowadays. You may address a technical problem from your very engineer/geek POV correctly (this one is rather your specific idea, than it has anything to do with "correctness", though), it can still be wrong.

Aaron J. Seigo said...

"I don't see why you couldn't just write a few paragraphs on what the real reason is then maybe we'd understand you better."

i have, on several occasions. i've explained the end goal of the zooming, i've described the benefits of hover interfaces, etc. i do explain, people keep coming back with, "i don't know what it is for." hard situation.

"you're super top secret idea is"

none of it is top secret. i've talked about the ideas openly for quite some time. i've come to the conclusion that only with finished code will most people hear it, though =)

"pointless to comment because you can always play the "you don't know everything card""

that's only brought up when the request is "remove it, because ...". there's lots of useful feedback on what drawbacks ("pain points") people are finding with it. that's what we're interested in finding out.

@anonymous: "but you are obviously taking this personally"

i'm not taking it personally, i'm seriously just amazed by the response when there's an invitation for input to get to real solution.

""I'm right and all you guys can go screw yourselves because you don't know" attitute, and therefore never fix the issue that apparently is there SINCE PEOPLE COMPLAIN"

the flaw in this jump of logic is that since people complain, that what they are requesting is the best solution. when i request that we instead of lobbying for a particular pet solution we go through and work out the technology, people take it as a "screw you" statement. astounding.

i'm not giving you the instant gratification of a "turn this off" button somewhere. i'm attempting to work through to a better solution.

i could of course just lie to you, give people their short term solutions or say that i'm doing that and go ahead and do what i'm doing anyways. maybe if i play the usual games of deception and secrecy you'd feel more at ease. i don't like doing it that way, though.

"make your opinion superior to everyone else's"

that wasn't the point of bringing that up. there's some odd "oh no, you're GNOME now!" bullshit floating about here, and i'm just pointing out my past work that shows i'm pretty much not of that mindset. it's not about supriority, it's about track record.

"WHY are you getting feedback on exactly this issue?"

it's not that there is feedback on the toolbox (or any other issue), it's the content of that feedback. "turn it off" gives me nothing to work with, and if i follow that request blindly may well end up creating something less than it should be. i'm asking for actual descriptions of how things are and we can build a solution out of that, rather than just jumping straight to what amount to demands for a particular (and tbh, poor) answer.

"but you keep throwing shit back in their faces"

are you even reading your comments here? seriously, if you want to talk about feces chucking, take a stroll through the "you're GNOME!" and "you're a smug asshole!" comments that come in response to me simply describing what sort of feedback works.

so you're describing a real double standard there.

"The give feedback because they care!"

that has never been in dispute; what i'm describing is what kind of feedback actually results in good things versus what kind of feedback is not very useful.

@anonymous: "Sometime it helps - even if it causes bad blood at first."

well, please don't. it's not very nice and i simply don't play by those rules. i have a personal policy of not rewarding negative behaviour with positive response. you can achieve a lot more by being open, honest and solutions oriented. mind games go to /dev/null.

"And no - I didn't got the idea from your post, that you intended to meet somewhere in the middle."

that was the entire message, repeated throughout. let me quote the key message here for you:

'Here's why: usually if the pain points are identified they can be addressed. Personally, I'd rather fix things than simply work around them. '

and then i describe how we collect those pain points and how we go about addressing them. i also explain how not everything happens immediately, because i'm not going to promise an unrealistic, "everything will be fixed immediately if you just provide the right feedback".

"What users do and want, does not need to match any technical goal."

i understand that. which is why i'm openly explaining the point and purpose of the approach so that we may be able to bridge that gap a bit.

"You do not satisfy them by telling them otherwise. This is a social problem."

agreed. and yes, i could just lie to you. i could tell you exactly what you want to hear and then pull a fast one on you. i find that mechanism of behaviour to be inhumane, sad and ultimately destructive.

if i left it up to you, would you rather work on a process where we can all explain our desires and needs and find ways to meet them ... or would you like me to pretend to care, lie to your face and go on doing whatever the heck it is i want anyways?

i understand the latter is what most of us are a lot more accustomed to in this day and age, but is it what we really want?

i'll honestly tell you that i can't produce the best solutions that way. so it becomes a double throwdown: the consumer gets a dishonest set of communication, and then they get an inferior product at the end of it.

holy suckage, batman.

Anonymous said...

Dear Doctor,

I really like that nifty thing in the top right corner and would want to have more of it. How about some more useful features; "Cause segfault" e.g. or a killer-feature like "Erase all hard disks".

Aye, why don't we banish all context menus? One mouse button should be enough, two are far to much for our average user! Let's just add those nifty toolboxes where ever we can. Doesn't matter, if they are useful, just add them, they look good and are sooo intuitive.

Thanks Aaron!

Love,
Florian.

PS: Doctor, please interpret the above as a symptom, and not as an insult.

LXj said...

So will be there any other functionality for this toolbox, or just adding widgets and zooming desktop? Because some users are more comfortable with adding widgets by right-clicking on wallpaper and feel no need to zoom the desktop ever.

What is actually wrong in letting the toolbox be there by default, but giving us the ability to hide it? And don't worry, your tester are closely following the changelogs, and when there is a new functionality for toolbox, we always can enable it again.

Another issue with toolbox is that 99% of the time I have maximized windows on every virtual desktop, so I can't access the toolbox anyway. Is anything planned for addressing this?

By the way, I discovered the 4.0.2 before the announcement (sorry ^^) and found this: “Open toolbox when the dashboard view starts (to show the user a way how to "Hide Dashboard" again)”. What is Dashboard?

Mark and Jaye said...

Now I know why you ignored me all those years growing up! hahaha...
Bis Sister...

Anonymous said...

Lets think, do you always have a toolbox on your physical desktop? No? Thought not.

There shouldn't be one on a computer desktop.

Having the toolbox in the top corner is not good for many reason e.g.:
- It looks terrible - asthetics are highly important. Seriously a curved icon in the corner of a square screen looks horrible! It looks K-lunky, something that the rest of the Kde4 desktop avoids well.
- If you have the top corner of a window near the toolbox icon, when you try and close it, you can miss and activate the toolbox by mistake, covering the application you are trying to close - ouch!
- There is a better solution - use the right click context menu - faster and tidier!
- It encroaches on what the user percieves to be their space. Keep system control elements off the desktop, or make them optional.

Aaron J. Seigo said...

@anonymous: "do you always have a toolbox on your physical desktop?"

do you have a menu bar at the top of your desktop, or at the top of your note pad paper? do you have a scrollbar on your paper books? do you have a close button? is there a "right click" menu? etc.

we're not literally copying the physical desktop here.

"- It looks terrible"

got a picture of something you'd prefer?

"If you have the top corner of a window near the toolbox icon, when you try and close it, you can miss and activate the toolbox by mistake, covering the application you are trying to close - ouch!"

you obviously haven't tried this, have you? because the toolbox doesn't cover any window: it sits on the desktop layer below everything.

please, please, please don't make arguments out of thin air. it only spreads misinformation. (the fact that it also makes you look a bit silly, well, that's not my problem)

also, in trunk, the toolbox doesn't expand at all in such situations.

"There is a better solution - use the right click context menu - faster and tidier!"

right click menus require open space to get to, are hidden (ergo not discoverable) and don't work nicely on devices that aren't controled by a device (which finger is the right click on a touch screen? :)

"It encroaches on what the user percieves to be their space. Keep system control elements off the desktop,"

erm ... what? so .. no panel either then. sure.

"or make them optional."

this issue has been covered thoroughly, and is a non issue. don't like it? use a different Containment.