so andreas pakulat notes that plasma doesn't work with xinerama very well at the moment. perhaps that's because none of the developers are using it on such a system at the moment. "humorously" i still don't have such a system to play with either. it is "cute" that andreas picked on a UI element that isn't even going to be in the final release; it is cool that he's using testing features (the form factor drop down) to find issues, though, since that's what they are there for. =)
and so, andreas concludes, that with some other apps crashing for him he's not going to "eat the dogfood" until 4.1. that's unfortunate. why? because that's precisely how we can ensure that things don't get better. so what to do? here are my thoughts:
first, use kde3 apps in your kde4 environment for the critical stuff when it crashes. if you rely on kdevelop, use the kde3 version.
second, try to have a slightly higher tolerance for work-in-progress. don't let things like missing icons in the control center freak you out. i know we're all spoiled by the years of working with kde3 which was amazingly complete, but most of us really can deal with minor inconveniences so as to get more testing in.
third, try and patch something that doesn't work every so often ... even if it isn't "your" code. taking that time out to fix a common annoyance may take time away from your own project, but it will add to the entirety of the experience and let more people use the betas with greater comfort, thereby bringing more hands on deck.
fourth, find the things that are cool and a reason to use kde4. for me, those include krunner (ok, perhaps i'm a bit attached to it for personal reasons ;), the games (i really can't stand to play the kde3 games anymore), marble (probably specific to my traveling nature) and konsole's new hotness. i put up with the other annoyances (and even try and fix some of them here and there =) because of those things.
we're on the home stretch as far as time goes right now. it's time to get the apps in shape and the features we absolutely need in working order. there's a lot left to do, and 4.1 will certainly be the desktop release that most people will start using compared to 4.0 but we owe it to ourselves (let alone our users) to plunge in an enjoy the pain a bit ;)
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As I commented on his blog, Xinerama *is* working with plasma, i'm using it right now, on openSUSE 10.2 with packages from the build service.
Probably his Qt4 is not compiled with xinerama support, or some kind of bug, but it's working here.
Btw I've been watching plasma evolve with each update on the build service packages and it's shaping up pretty good: keep up the good work!
Nowadays I pretty much start kde, quit kdesktop and kicker, and just use plasma goodness. =)
plasma rocks!
kde4 is going to be the best desktop ever!
keep up the amazing work!
I'm going to take your word for the current state of development of KDE4 since I've been following you blog, and because Andreas seems to have made a conclusion based on one build of the releases. I know KDE4 has a long way to go, and that KDE4.1 will be the more polished and presentable release - but is KDE4.0 going to be developer-only or is it going to be stable enough for end-users who want to use it as their primary system?
The problem is that many KDE4 applications are fine. It's the desktop environment that's not there.
It's too far from a working state to be used at the moment.
So using kde4 applications in a KDE 3 environment is still comfortable enough, the other way around not at all.
I understand andreas.
I think, the big problem is that many people out there that 4.0 == kde4
it is the same point m$ had with many pieces of their software.....
good software is in fact like a good piece of cheese.. they mature at the users.
We need bug reports, opinions.... to make k4 the best of breed... so i would prefer to wait another 2-3 months (so january is a great date... for the officiel announcement... (for marketing reasons it should be called at least 4.1 then =) ) and then get a real big piece of great stuff out there ....
I wanted to post a bit more (by doing more testing), but unfortunately I got stuck in a build nightmare due to the latest monday-changes.
So before I get to bed today and do the more-extensive testing tomorrow evening, I'd like to loose a few words:
First and foremost, I never said KDE4 in its current state doesn't work with xinerama, all I said was that this desktop-widget-thingie has a problem there. Everything else seemed to work fine, as in: Apps always opened on Screen #1, which IIRC is the default setting.
The problem I have is not so much about kwrite/kate crashing (or kdev4 which is not even in a 4.0 schedule), its the desktop experience. I need a properly working desktop to be productive, this includes a bit more than krunner (I love it, btw) and a konsole for me. I already have little time and I certainly don't want to spend time working around problems in the desktop.
Regarding using kde3 apps in kde4 desktop: How can I use kde3 kicker in kde4? How do I get kde3's amarok and konversation into the systray?
Regarding the patching: I didn't see anything obvious that would need fixing. Apart from that: Taking time from my pet project is not a big deal, if it stays withing some limits. I mean hunting down a bug and fix in say 2 hours in code I've never seen is cool, but when it gets considerable more or looks like more than that I opt to not do it.
Cool things: Plasma, sooooo cool thx Aaron for working on it. KWin seems promising if I can get Composite and 2Screen Desktop to work together, konsole - well didn't test much and yes I do love krunner as well (oops said that already :)
KDE4 needs to be released sooner or later and waiting a few more months will not considerably improve things. The current schedule is the right way to go.
KDE4 will be immature in many aspects. A lot of things will be missing. It will not be very stable and a lot of things will change with later releases. But Kde-4 has to get out into the hands of ordinary users who find annoyances in real world cases an report them.
KDE-4 will be somewhat painful and a lot of people may even be dissapointed by it. This is a sacrifice we have to make. KDE4 will become a worthy successor to KDE3 but it will take a year or two for it to reveal its potential.
Momesana hit the right spot. We could delay 4.0, but for what? Every day you delay it further, cool stuff gets done, sure. But then again, why ever stabilize and release it?
We have chosen to tell the world about 4.0 and the amazing future of KDE 4 in Januari, so the 'real' 4.0 release can have a little delay, but not much. And I think that's a good thing. Delaying it even further won't get us anywhere (like 4.1 will be better than 4.0 - but then again, 4.2 will be even cooler) and NOT releasing means users have to wait even more and the rest of the world won't even see what we have done.
let's just see how far we can get before the end of october. If we really need to, we can delay the stuff for another month...
momesana: You said that KDE4 "has to get out into the hands of ordinary". But why does this have to happen by realeasing it officially? Wouldn't real Beta releases (Beta 1 really felt to unstable/incomplete to be called a Beta) be better suited for that? Then you can tell users to test it but you won't get bad publicity like you'd get when calling it an official release. You still get the same effect -> KDE4 stabilizes.
IMHO Troy's release plan (http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-release-team&m=118825532408572&w=2) is the way to go.
So I just finished my second try (this time I spent about an hour). I was trying to find more things that work, unfortunately I found more broken things :( One thing is xinerama support, not really working which I didn't see before. Apps always open on the first screen, identifiying screens is not working.
Well, I had a try to get composite support working and I do have compilation-support for it now, but still I can't seem to use it. Debug output still suggests it doesn't work. Well not that important anyway.
Hmm, then suddently I couldn't start krunner anymore, Alt+F2 didn't work. Similar problem with app-switching, the switching worked, but the box with the windowlist doesn't appear.
Yes sure I can run all the kde3 apps in the kde4 desktop, but then why should I run kde4 if I only use kwin+plasma (none of which have something really usable atm).
I'm still a bit disappointed, but I really hope this will improve in the next months. I know that kde hackers can do amazing things in sooo little time.
I think let KDE4 take the time it needs. As a very minor contributor to KDE I feel a little lost at this stage because I miss having a bugzilla with little issues I can find and try to fix :) Is there a junior jobs list or something for trunk? Even though I have very little spare time running my own little café I really feel like helping out now that the 4.0 is coming close.
It's basically like this: KDE 4 will leap-frog anything Gnome'rs can even think up (not to mention actually implement).
So pundits will always take the time to criticize a thing while they still have the chance (i.e. before it is complete).
Do not let that deter you! There is always some form of 'birthing pain' from any major new software release, and KDE is no exception to this.
I am very much looking forward to KDE 4, and I have to say the current Gnome and KDE 3 main menu selection method is not only strange and counter-intuitive but a waste of time.
People need to be able to do three things quickly when 'browsing' for apps:
1- Find
2- Recognize
3- Launch
Sad to say this but, current Gnome and KDE 3.x ways for doing this from the 'start menu' is weak. (Yes I realize there is the 'old' method left in KDE 3.x thank the gods!)
Also, it is not at all amusing to me the fact that KDE 3.x cool features (such as compositing effects) are slaughtered - and that is putting it mildly - from the major distrobutions' releases. That is to say they disable/break the things, in attempting to get the immature and unstable XGL/Beryl/Compiz just to work.
Time for someone to really "step up to the plate", and bring back the KDE into the distro. (I don't mean the watered-down versions which are merely testing devices for the corporations - OpenSuSE and Fedora - BOO!)
Funny you should mention missing icons.... The vast majority of the icons for Evolution have been missing on my desktop install since day one (several versions). After a week, I learned to ignore it (of course, once I hop on the laptop, it's all over, since that install is "complete" somehow).
One of these days I'll get KDE4 up and running on one of my machines. The Planet KDE feed definitely has me excited over it. I just gotta make some room for the install.
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