dear christian,
you mistake my enthusiasm for freedom for an enthusiasm for a particular operating system (linux, in this case). that linux right now is the brightest light for freedom amongst operating systems available today (due to its licensing, ubiquity, capability and community) makes it a fine subject for my enthusiasm. but make no mistake, it is not for me a question of linux or not linux, but freedom or not freedom; a kde that is in the long term sustainable or not.
if we skip past the bare fact that the majority of free software has come from the efforts of those on free platforms (which in my mind is no coincidence), we are still left with this: we are engaging a platform that is owned and controlled by one of the most predatory and anti-freedom groups in our industry, microsoft. to do so without thought is akin to walking into a burning forest as if it were any other springtime meadow.
bringing kde to windows and mac os is an expansion of the scope of kde and its community that bring with it new populations, new challenges and new opportunities in equal parts. any time new groups of people enter a community they change it, simply by their presence, resulting most often in the irreversible alteration of said community. in its place will be a new thing, though too often that new thing is a diminishment of the old. i have lived in towns where exactly this has occurred, as many others have, so this is not theory but simple fact of how things work.
the cure for diminishment in change? awareness of self and of the system we share. the altered thing can be something better than what was there before, but it requires a dialog which is what we are to date, imho, missing.
had anyone in these porting efforts actually been able to share something like, "this is what we're doing, this is how we want it to be in respect to what already is and these are our goals.. what do you think?" i would not feel compelled to play the provocateur. had i not played the provocateur at all, how much discussion on this would we be having?
perhaps you have great plans that cover all sorts of territory, but if so they remain largely hidden beneath a veil. then again, perhaps you simply don't care and are idling away at increasing the scope of our project without concern, though i do know from discussions with others involved with the win32 efforts that this is certainly not the case for all involved.
(editorial addition: i should be clear that the above paragraph is not meant to suggest a lack of caring, though my clumsy words can certainly be read that way; rather what i was attempting to note is that these things may not be topics that fall within one's personal scope of interest.)
today all i have to reference is something akin to that joke: "step 1, steal underpants. step 2 .... step 3, profit!" in this case it is "step 1, port to windows and mac. step 2 .... step 3, success!" to be honest, i have no idea even what "success" refers to and it has been up to those of us who were here before these efforts to figure it all out. that seems to me to be very backwards.
the first time around this particular discussion, we arrived at the conclusions that we can access new bodies of contributors and create new avenues of interoperability with this expansion. this was a positive step in defining goals (the "success" part), but in no way have we formulated a method towards them other than hand-wavey prognostications. interestingly, these thoughts seemed to come nearly exclusively from people who are firmly rooted in open source systems.
where are the voices from these new platforms? how do we build this into a bigger, better community effort? i would feel remiss to make an agenda upon your efforts without your consent and acknowledgment, and i would feel equally remiss to have no clue as to what the agenda may be.
so as you can see, i am not looking to win or even start and argument with you, nor disparage or discourage your work. rather, i am looking for those such as yourself to ponder with seriousness and openness how we weave all of our efforts together and how we respect the principles of freedom and community that we have built all this upon and from.
we can, of course, simply ignore the win32 and mac efforts and take the attitude of, "hey, let them figure it out and make what they can with it." we could quite simply remove all attention and care from such efforts and allow it to founder without backing or public awareness. i think that would be a travesty in that we'd be losing out on something potentially great, not to mention betraying our own principles of inclusion. it is also plain to me that it is not a fair act to put the burden of interpreting these efforts upon those who are not involved with them. as someone who is expected on occasion to speak on behalf of this project, it is often quite discomforting to speak on behalf of those who i do not feel and connection with.
if we do expect our marketing team to trumpet these new platforms; if we expect our software developers to provide allowances for and efforts towards what you are doing; if we expect our translators and documenters and artists and ... everyone in our community to broaden the scope of their efforts in even in the smallest of ways to buoy up and fully realize the advantage of being on these new platforms then those leading these efforts owe it to the rest of us to engage not in silent biding of your time building upon the great works done by others who came before you but to engage with those who steward the project's various aspects and provide direction.
so instead of making a funny discussion, i'd like to invite you to make a serious one on how we improve the kde community and the freedom that is its wellspring. i also like to invite the others involved, such as Jaroslaw, to help create a public record for our community.
i am excited by these developments. if i weren't i wouldn't spend any time whatsoever thinking about them, let alone writing about them. but i continue to wait for word on how we would like this community and technology to be. i continue to wait for word on how we plan to shore up and expand the freedom inherent in our project and pay good mind to those who have supported us in the past and present.
and while i can think of more fun (and funny) discussions to have, i can hardly think of ones that are more important to have at this point in time. i know the majority of participants simply wish to engage in a creative process and scratch their itches and i know that this is absolutely fine; but for that to continue indefinitely some of us must look at the bigger picture together.
and personally ... i'd prefer not to feel compelled to rake the coals with my words to find the source of the fires that drive you. i'd rather have a place where i can cozy up, watch them in full view and comment on them in awe. give me a fireplace to look upon your flame so that we may warm our hands together.
Sunday, June 24, 2007
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10 comments:
Good One! I share the similar feelings on anything being ported :-)
Thank you Aaron ! This is the kind of open-mindedness and constructive (even if somewhat critical) debate that sets OSS and KDE apart. I'm glad KDE has so many brilliant hackers but also community leaders. And don't mistake the word "leader", which may sometimes be perceived negatively in certain communities: it is meant here as a recognition that it takes (cheer)leaders to organize such an international, heterogeneous and complex community as KDE !
Now, I completely agree with you: let's hope the KDE community can be enlarged to other platforms while keeping its identity and creativity. There are definitely risks but also tremendous opprotunities around the corner. I think we're at a critical point in time, and I can't wait to see what reaction your post will stir :-)
Thanks again for being around, I so much enjoy reading your blog (not mentioning the excellent work you do as a developer). You're a man with vision and a good spirit, please continue to make us dream even though your role certainly entails exposure and means bruises along the way. Take this a a word of encouragement to make up for that...
aaron, you've been reading too many Shakespeareanesque epitaphs. Doth speaketh with eloquence and grandeur but WTF'eth does thou meaneth, in plain English. I do get your points but I am sure you realize not everyones primary language is classical English.
yay discussion!
my mind is currently trying to argue both extremes at once. it's making my head spin :P
we need some apps there so that people see there's something cool to switch to... but then, if they can use them there, it's easier for them to stay... ack. how do you make someone interested in switching when they're so afraid of change (or locked in to proprietary apps) they'll put up with unending viruses and crashes and reinstalls?
What I'd like to throw into the discussion is Apple's iTunes port to Windows. I think it's a perfect example.
I know many people who use iTunes on Windows, and they love it. Ok, there are also a lot of people (like me) who say that iTunes is slow as hell and buggy (+not using Windows' style), but the normal user doesn't care too much about iTunes' bloat.
So, iTunes is really a great tool for most of the users I know. But only one of my friends really has a mac computer - and only because his dad bought one. But he LOVES his mac because iTunes integrates sooo cool into mac. And he tells everyone! But well, because a mac costs money and all of my friends are still students, noone has one. Thus, interoperability on Mac is just ***. It may have improved with OpenOffice, but it's the same situation with linux, esp. regarding games. People stick to Windows because they need the apps they have there. Ok, WMP11 crashes all the time but iTunes is out there on Windows too, isn't it?
On the other hand, my dad could only prepare my mom to switch to Linux because OpenOffice also exists for Windows and so I tought her how to use it instead of Word. She wanted to use Linux because she really couldn't handle viruses and other malware, but she feared that she would miss the apps from Windows. So the availability of OpenOffice on Windows really helped.
I doubt though that this can be applied to an audio player, seriously. An audio player is not a too complex application from a user-POV, at least not like a word processor.
So, I just wanted to throw those random thoughts into discussion, esp. iTunes. I think it's useful to discuss about real use cases ;-).
PS: And sorry for my weird language, but as you might have guessed already I'm not a native English speaker ;-).
I agree with Aaron on this, although anonymous makes a good case for an executive summary. ;-)
If we like the free desktop, why would we compromise it by focusing on non-free platforms? Sometimes this can distract from more important things: for example, Kubuntu now has a bunch of Windows applications on the live CD but they probably need to do more work on the installation process of the distribution itself, amongst other things, rather than bundling things which aren't useful to a lot of their audience. And besides, if people want to see Free Software in action, why wouldn't they just boot into the live version rather than messing around installing and uninstalling Windows applications?
Sometimes people don't want to realise they've done all that's reasonably possible to convince others of the merits of something because the evidence of that contradicts their preconceived notion of how things should be. KDE on Windows at least gets people onto Free Software (and off proprietary stuff) - that is a good thing - but let's not overstate the case for people then making the switch to KDE on a free platform, at least without having some evidence of that being a factor.
One thing that strikes me as essentially important as kde apps make the move to non-free platforms, is that the marketing materials for those apps maintain a clear and up front presentation that these packages are Free Software, and not just another peice of freeware. If you go to Mozilla.com, there is nothing on that page that indicates that firefox is an open source browser. The openoffice.org page barely makes a passing mention that it is an "Open Source Project", which while better, does nothing to demonstrate what the freedom of the software really means. If the kde apps that show up on win & mac, can accomplish these two things: 1) get a basic message out that this cool software respects your freedom (and why this is important), and 2) That this great software is just the tip of the iceberg, there is a whole platform of really cool and Free just an iso download away, then the effort would be of some success. What absolutely has to be avoided allowing these packages to be seen as just another peice of free/shareware that is a little bit cooler than the other guy's. If that happens, then we've simply better entrenched that particular user even better on that non-free platform and made them even less motivated to move away from it.
For 90% of my computer work I use the webbrowser. It is firefox.
Recently I installed a software and wondered why it looked strange, then I realised that I was using it with Wine and this was my kubuntu desktop. As a firefox user Windows or Linux does not make a real difference for me. Despite that I feel safer with Linux.
An amarok-Port to Windows gives us the opportunity to compare the tool with its competitors such as iTunes.
The more applications are cross-plattform, the less important operating systems become.
I think this is a great post. Aaron you express valid concerns and I hope you provoke many reactions and a better outline for the ports comes as a result of this.
I think an important point from the app standpoint that I haven't seen mentioned much is competition and this is twofold.
1) There will be new developers who use the KDE platform to simply try and create a free version of an existing program. I don't necessarily think that's a good thing, but it's a good motivation for those people to get in touch with the KDE source, and that's greap for new apps/developers.
From the existing app standpoint I sincerely hope that the potential to get new users does not lead to implementing brain-dead features of existing closed-source apps simply to lure new users. Maybe that is what Aaron was referring to when talking about the change to the existing communities.
I would like to see a storm of new apps and developers, but I expect that to pass relatively quickly, and I hope that existing KDE applications do not feel threatened by this and continue to invent and grow at a maintainable pace and weather the storm.
2) Competition with other apps and a sudden multiplication of users will have to be dealt with in a sane way. I hope that this will lead to more stable apps, but this can only be the case if those new users are taught that they can actually interact with the developers. Win users are not used to that. They will complain about lacking documentation, missing features and faulty behavior.
I expect many to come for the free apps, but it is going to be a major effort to help them become a part of a free community.
I commend all the KDE devs for their hard work invested in the transition to KDE4. This will bring a set of new apps and a free framework to proprietary OSes on a scale that could be compared to the GNU tools on Unix (but that was before my time so I know very little about it.)
The best of luck to KDE4 and may the free community rock on for ages to come.
Seeing this discussion, I remembered reading some time ago the fsf/RMS/GNU(don't remember which) position on this; which if I recall correctly was something generic like, we should concentrate our efforts in free software platforms and porting should be an afterthought and only as long as it doesn't shift focus from the primary goal (producing a completely free operating system).
Anyway, I can't quote the above, as entering the query
gnu position on "porting to windows"
supplied me with an interesting (around fifth) result from 2.5 years ago:
how to kill open source on the desktop
I don't pretend to have given any real thought on this matter and excuse me for bringing up nothing more on this discussion other than what you yourself have said before; but I'm rather intrigued to see some real discussion on this matter, which is always touched in a sideways and light manner.
So, has something changed on the last 2.5 years? Do you still believe that the effects of porting will be so detrimental to the viability of a Free desktop?
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