Friday, December 22, 2006

a website does not make you smart

so i read this bit of drivel over at osnews.com. i'd just like to point out to Thom Holwerda that having a website does not make you informed or intelligent. if anything it gives you a soapbox on which to showcase just how with it, or not, you are.

first, Thom points to a quote from me that our goal is to have a 4.0 ready sometime in the first half of next year. that gives us until sometime in june and i'm still thinking we can make it. i'm not sure what world Thom lives in, but not shipping this year what you hope to ship next year seems rational.

Thom also says that all the vision behind KDE4 has amounted to nothing but vision. i suppose, Thom, you aren't following progress in svn are you? obviously not, otherwise you would have noticed phonon, solid, decibel, strigi/nepomuk, oxygen, model/view-ization of the file management facilities, modernization of several parts of our libraries, etc, etc... even smaller items like sonnet, which is right now getting some nice grammar checking support, are moving forward. koffice2 jumps leaps and bounds along with many of the other apps in kde's svn. in other words, Thom is full of crap when he says 4.0 is stalled.

of course Thom ignores these facts while picking out two projects in particular: plasma and appeal. let me talk about both of them for a moment here, starting with appeal.

appeal was never a software project, and nobody ever said it was. it was an attempt to change how certain development processes occur in kde. and it has been a great success in my mind. directly out of it came the ideas for plasma and for oxygen; it also helped inspire others to think along new lines and come up with impressive new ways of addressing old issues. if Thom doesn't see the impact appeal had, he just isn't afforded the benefit of the viewpoint of someone inside the kde development community. this is the danger when you peer inside from the outside and try and expound sagely: odds are high you'll miss the mark.

plasma on the other hand is the visible part of an iceberg: the top couple percent of the whole structure. i've had to wait on item after item after item over the last year and half to be ready for plasma. during that same time i've been travelling like a mad man paying attention to kde issues that were also in need. a project like kde, which is to say a huge global meta-project, doesn't run itself anymore and it needs attention in ways it didn't used to. we had let it go to seed on a few fronts and i had been working to fix that. with the help of several others in the community i think we've accomplished much of what has been needed and now have in place mechanisms to continue that progress. that is to say that i've been both time committed to other items while the rest of the iceberge is prep'd for plasma.

last week i started working on parts of the replacements for kdesktop, which is part of the plasma project. i now have 4 days a week set aside for work on these issues, something i haven't had until this month. *shrug* i'm not particularly worried or concerned, but maybe that's because i'm in the driver's seat here. i understand that being a passenger can be a lot more disconcerting.

but when someone comes out and says that things are stalled or that it's all hot air when it isn't ... that sounds a lot like, what's the word? oh yeah, libel!

Thom takes advantage of Tim's blog about gtk+ needing more maintainers to write an alarmist piece that makes the national enquirer look like informed journalism. this is a double disservice: not only does it whip up unwarranted alarm amongst users and give our detractors unfounded ammunition, it punishes developers like Tim for speaking openly about the challenges we face. the free software community relies on our ability to speak openly and honestly to each other; if we start to get punished for it then we have a real problem. today that problem has a pair of names behind it: Thom Holwerda and osnews.com.

now, Thom does have one good point: we don't have enough developers. but asking me if we have enough developers is like asking a tribble if it thinks there are enough tribbles yet on captain kirk's enterprise. we can never have enough developers; there is always so much to do. even once we've accomplished everything we've set ahead of ourselves right now, there's still so much more to do =) with the developers we currently have things move ahead at a certain pace and i have to note that 4.0 is moving ahead faster now than it has at any other point in the last year. but yeah, we could always use more hands.

update: i just saw that Thom's article was picked up on slashdot. way to the do the community a disservice and join the libel brigade, cmdrtaco! merry christmas to you, too.

43 comments:

Andrew said...

Thanks for this.

I'm a GNOME user these days, but this nonsense affects both desktops. I would also point out that GNOME may still be on a 2.x series...but I fail to see any reason that we should be jumping ahead to 3.0 any time soon. The point releases are more feature packed than any point releases from MS or Apple. Same with the 3.x series releases from KDE. 3.0 to 3.5 has seen a lot of neat new features added, like HAL media support.

Commercial software companies have to keep making releases because their revenue stream depends on it, apart from if there's any useful features to actually be added. Free software has no such restraint on it, and this fellow over at osnews.com does us a disservice by forcing the commercial software model on us.

FWIW, Vista really is a crappy version of XP in a new skin--just like XP was a point release of Windows 2000 with a new skin. GNOME added neat compositing effects without a huge major release or the accompanying marketing drivel, like MS is doing with Vista.

We're innovating at the same pace as MS and Apple, we just don't need to market new features the way they do.

superstoned said...

i had a talk with tom on the forum about this, mostly telling him what you just said. he claims to really believe KDE 4 won't be here for end 2008. well, if he does, he should be free to express that, and not shut up for fear of being verbally attacked or something...

on the other hand, i find it hard to believe - if he did some reading, it's weird he came to this conclusion. so i suspect some hidden agenda - trying to stir things up. and (subconsciously) trying to say KDE4 is one big blob of FUZZ, of course, as his beloved Gnome clearly lacks any sort of vision... probably wishfull thinking.

Ramsees said...

SuperStoned don't try to turn this in a GNOME conspirance agains KDE because it isn't don't you ever get tired of being a troll?

digital.alterego said...

i just read the osnews article, and really thought, wtf?

i really don't get his point, kde made enormous progress since 3.0, making xp looking really lame (ever tried to copy/paste a file in explorer via ftp?).

it's clear that thom is absolutely clueless what an enormous effort it is to build and manage something like kde4.

thanks for your clarifacation regarding plasma, and your hard work on kde.

Robert Scott said...

Nobody pays any attention to osnews.

A troll who's bought a domain name is still a troll.

nixternal said...

Aaron, first of all thanks for all of your hard work and dedication!

IIRC, OSNews is an Open Source News site and not somebodies personal blog, so I do feel that sites like OSNews, Slashdot, and Digg have become the geeks MySpace equivalents spreading nothing but FUD.

Thom fails to realise that we have done more than Microsoft or Apple on the desktop front by adding functionality within the desktop. Microsoft started their Longhorn/Vista adventures back in 2001, and 5 years later produced the ugliest Windows XP glossy theme I have ever seen. As for Apple, I never follow them much, and only hear of them and what they do with their silly commercials.

Thom states 2002 was a big year, and that's about all he really got right concerning the Linux desktop. Since then we have had point releases which of course fix bugs but have always added close to an equal amount of functionality, accessibility, and features. Microsoft on the other hand has release bug fixes and security patches. Like my grandfather always said, there is nothing like wasting your time trying to polish a turd, and Microsoft has been doing it for years now. GNOME and KDE on the other hand have been striving towards greatness in leaps and bounds over the rest. We don't have the luxury to sit here and say "we released it, let them worry about it" because we have such an open community.

GNOME and KDE don't have visions according to him, I watched the Akademy videos and seen boat loads of vision. I don't follow GNOME much being an avid KDE user/semi-contributor for 10 years now, but I know they are also working just as hard with their visions of greatness as well (telepathy ring a bell?).

I am fed up reading about the open source community from people who don't live it, breathe it, and love it. Thom obviously doesn't as he has time to use Vista according to his blog post, or OSNews story. I will let you make the decision on which of them it really is.

So Aaron, do as I do, block OSBlog, Slashnot, and Dugg. Keep up the excellent work buddy! If you did listen a little bit to what Thom said and it effected, please stop reading it, otherwise according to Thom KDE 4 won't be out until 2008 :) OK, bad joke I know. Thanks again Aaron.

Benoit Jacob said...

Quoting Aaron:

last week i started working on parts of the replacements for kdesktop, which is part of the plasma project. i now have 4 days a week set aside for work on these issues


Awesome news! I've noticed that you resumed committing plasma stuff to SVN a few days ago. Now that you have time on your hands, I'm sure you'll make incredible things in Plasma. Wish you a happy hacking! (and holidays).

Aaron J. Seigo said...

@superstoned: i fully support thom's right to be able to make predictions like "kde4 won't be ready until december 2008" or whatever he wishes to say.

what i don't support is him using libelous statements on a public forum to create an aura of supporting fact his predictions.

he crossed a line by making false accusations about the present. that's entirely different than expressing one's opinion on the future.

mxcl said...

OSNews is a joke nowadays. You can read it, as long as you like tabloid and misinformation.

johnorford said...

I don't see /any/ features or "innovations" in Vista or XP that Gnome or KDE have. Maybe they spend more on advertising it, and shouting about it, good for them.

Every day I boot into KDE 3.X i am grateful for it. Thanks!

johnorford said...

obviously i meant osx and vista haven't got any features that the the freedesktops don't have... (brain ain't in gear)

Daniel "Suslik" D. said...

osnews.com = sensationlist yellow press for more than a year now.

Drive up trafic and ad revenue is fine in my book, but he instigates stupid, intentially devisive, empty discussions on purpose.

The best rebuff for this kind of crap is ignoring osnews forums.

Henry Miller said...

I wondier if Gnome and KDE could get together and write a joint response. You mostly covered the KDE part fine, and I'm pretty sure the Gnome camp (which I don't follow) can respond in much the same way.

The release wouldn't so much be do make this guy look like an idiot as to make everyone who thinks that KDE and Gnome don't/shouldn't get alone, despite much work in dBus and other cross-desktop technologies they we work together on as best we can.

momesana said...

We should calm down a little, ignore these rants and focus on coding. Opensource, especially Kde has come a long way and we still have a long way ahead before massadoptions will begin (and I am confident, it will happen one day.)

The maturing -- and as a result the adoption -- of kde and Foss is irreversible. The development will probably even accelerate with an ever growing user-base. Nonetheless, its a slow evolutionary process. KDE-4 will be released sometime. Either next year or in 2008. And it will be a big step forward.

Yet we should always keep in Mind that the changes in KDE-4 are pretty huge. The underlying libraries are the foundation of the bling bling you expect to see in KDE-4 and the better they are, the better the desktop will be. They should get even more love before we hurry ahead to create the new desktop.

Me personally, I think KDE4 will be released in the second half of 2007 but I expect the real revolutionary changes to slowly appear around 2009 as the changes in the underlying libs consolidate and progress forward. Just as it was with the KDE-3 series. Just compare KDE-3.0 with KDE-3.5.

I wonder how large the FOSS userbase will be in 2012. 10% or even higher? Only time will tell.

Louis said...

I've said it before; the only people that make comments like Thom's are those that aren't paying attention. He openly admits that he uses Vista and loves it. That tells you where he's coming from.
Microsoft only looks like they are moving ahead because they have a habit of stealing features from other sources, giving them catchy names, and then spending millions marketing them as a "look what we can do" features. "Look at our great new security." "Everyday apps don't need admin rights!" "Gaze upon our new desktop eye candy!" "Check out our modern file sys...oops, nevermind on that one."

Aaron J. Seigo said...

@momesana: imho, your assessment of "4.0 released in '07, apps continuing to mature and take full advantage of what kde4 is through '09" is probably pretty accurate.

ditto on the unstoppable force of open source.

the reason i replied to Thom's tripe is that his article, unlike most similar drivel, got a very wide reading and is only serving to fuel dissatisfaction. leaving it unanswered would just leave those doubts lingering in too many people's minds.

Pointwood said...

Great response Aaron!

Only thing I find sad is that the article wasn't worth spending time creating a response to. I'm amazed at how clueless it is. It was a waste of time just reading it.

Keep up the good work - it's good to hear that KDE4 will be out before december 2008 ;)

Anonymous said...

http://cogscanthink.blogsome.com/category/linu

For more random rant from our friend.

ps. Eric hope turb is doing fine now.

Anonymous said...

OSNews.com is nothing more than a Pro Microsoft evangelizing site posing to be OS neutral on opinions, but its track record does not reflect what the site is suppose to represent.

Anonymous said...

Thom and Eugenia have some agenda, since they're always feeling the need to push Open Source related stuff down:

http://cogscanthink.blogsome.com/2006/04/07/aero-will-run-fine/

"Oh Aero works good on my computer, oh Linux isn't good with few ram either"

Bah! So much for osnews, they're biasedosnews... :P

Anonymous said...

Even funnier is the fact that the poster in the blog that Eugenia was answering was comparing Vista with XP and she started talking about Linux... wtf?

Ronald said...

But Thom's ranticle put something obvious forward: KDE's visibility is at an all-time low.

KDE4 is vague in what it will bring to the KDE user. People aren't informed about what it's release will bring. And think that it will be just under-the-hood work. People still need to be informed that KOffice exists.

I read Dot.kde.org every now and then. It is nice. But it won't hype your stuff. Nor inform your userbase.

Nick said...

I was insulted by this article the second I saw it. osnews.com has a decent "goal" or manifesto or whatever but it is a horrible horrible site! I don't think it is actually maintaned! The crap they let go through there is incredible. I hero worship all of the kde developers and efforts of all open source developers everywhere and am working on becoming a good developer, I taught myself Qt but I am far from being able to write KDE quality code. I know it never helps to fight negativity and FUD like what this guy posted but I can't help but get the impression that more than half of these kinds of negative posts are written self-justifications of why they use Windows. There is a lot of negative stigmatism around using Windows in the geek culture and perhaps through understandable frustrations with their previous attempts to switch they say to themselves "I could use linux but windows is better it must be that the desktop isn't being developed because it isn't a mirror image of Vista!" Maybe it's a little extreme and I am sure this guy would rattle off a laundry list of *nix experience at me as people tend to do, but you said it yourself and no one is in a better position to make the judgement that this was completely baseless. So if it wasn't motivated by any kind of journalistic truth finding then what? All that is really left is a completely personal motivation. Anyway keep up the awesome work when KDE 4 comes out to even beta it will be an awesome day! Thank you for your work!

Johnny! said...

But Thom's ranticle put something obvious forward: KDE's visibility is at an all-time low.

I cannot agree more. I am convinced that the interest by SMEs and home-users in Macs has been as a result of Apple's ability to drag their identity out into the open through the iPod.

Once people started to see the iPods everywhere, people were naturally inclined to look at what else Apple had to offer.

Speaking for myself, I find KDE an excellent environment to work in. However, it needs public exposure (and I mean, the average, non-IT-releated public). Without it cannot gain the acceptance it needs to grow.

Stronger growth will attract more developers and investment by business, and I can see OSS projects growing and improving exponentially if it does.

zoopafly said...

Reading all the stuff on Linux mr. Holwerda writes on his own blog, it is indeed easy to see how partisan he is.

He may try to present himself as a neutral editor on OSNews, by occasionally saying something nice on Linux/FLOSS. But when your true nature comes out of the closet like this, for everyone to see, it becomes difficult to continue to maintain such a website, and write for it too.

Not to mention his terrible lack of skill in moderating the "discussions" that you see whenever Linux or Windows is brought up. Maybe they don't take their own job as editors too seriously at OSNews. Well, why should we take OSNews seriously, then?

Anonymous said...

Disclaimer; I am not a gnome or kde user; however, I do enjoy seeing articles about what is going on with UI's.

Just wanted to say it was a nice write up. And you seem to have cut quite a bit of slack towards osnews for uhmmm; their *cough* article.

PS: I have seen some screen shots of kde 4; and it does look like their is some new eye candy (kind of tempting). In essence; looks good / solid; keep up the good work.

PSS: Is it libel or sensationalism? Perhaps it isn't so differnt after all. Maybe they are trying to out slashdot slashdot.

Regards,
me

Anonymous said...

Disclaimer; I am not a gnome or kde user; however, I do enjoy seeing articles about what is going on with UI's.

Just wanted to say it was a nice write up. And you seem to have cut quite a bit of slack towards osnews for uhmmm; their *cough* article.

PS: I have seen some screen shots of kde 4; and it does look like their is some new eye candy (kind of tempting). In essence; looks good / solid; keep up the good work.

PSS: Is it libel or sensationalism? Perhaps it isn't so differnt after all. Maybe they are trying to out slashdot slashdot.

Regards,
me

Gothic said...

Nice Shot, let's wait for a Gnome point of view =) I think OSnews need to focus more in news not in opinions.

Nicholas Furgiuele said...

I loved reading this because I LOVE seeing an IT "know it all" being shot down in flames.

I switched to Gnome from KDE a while ago. I have always thought of KDE as being a complete package, but it was also confusingly too functional for me. KDE 3.X also has a "rough around the edges" feel to it (perhaps that's just a personal opinion).

Gnome on the other hand, I find to be a little too minimalist in some areas (especially the file manager) but I prefer simplicity in the place of confusing complete functionality.

I also like Gnome's visual look and feel. It seems more polished than KDE.

But KDE has always had full functionality in many areas in which Gnome has failed miserably.

Despite my move to Gnome, KDE 4 is one of the open source projects that I am most excited about.

I just hope you're all doing a good job and it is a success for you all.

Anonymous said...

Maybe KDE should have focused more on 3.6, 3.7, 3.8... instead of 4.0. To the end user, it looks like the last great KDE innovation that really saw the light was 2-3 years ago. Since then, little change, little new features, only talk about KDE 4.0. Every developer seems to be waiting for KDE 4.0, everyone is unwilling to add new features to 3.x, and little exciting things will happen before the magical "Big Bang" that is supposed to come from "somewhere". In the meantime, GNOME has been getting better and better up to the point that Ubuntu really became mainstream.

Anonymous said...

I already wanted to post this yesterday, when I read your post, but I delayed it - now reality kicked in: I would have bet that Thom Holwerda would make a cheap follow-up story like "developer responds to OSNews story - read more in this exclusive crappy OSNews story" (no more oracle bonus for me).

I think it's a mistake to answer to to such opinionated and badly researched articles - it gives more power to these idiots (and as the follow-up story shows, you just delivered him exclusive content for free, in "response to Thom" - makes him look important), and it doesn't look like he recognizes or admits his biased view.
It's nothing more to create a huge, diffuse flamefest and to generate lots of comments and hits on osnews.com.
the sad thing is, this isn't the first time these so called exclusive articles or opinion pieces appear on OSNews.
When i read the title of the article I knew it would again be some unfounded speculation - save yourself some time and don't even read it next time.
OSNews can be nice to get news about different projects, stuff you don't check out regularly - but I think it should be ignored for its hopelessly biased view and spreading of misinformation in spite of knowing better. Save your time and nerves by not responding to this - don't feed the troll.

Instead of spoon-feeding him, let him do his homework next time. Even if he has a certain outreach with his website - correcting everything and reading this much misinformation is not worth the hassle. Just ignore him next time.

Anonymous said...

I don't think you've been libeled. In any case, you've not been damaged, and I think most people know that both of the major Linux desktops are in good shape.

Good luck with KDE 4, guys and gals. Thanks for your hard work.

Ant Bryan said...

I'm really looking forward to the new version of KGet coming with KDE4. A modern download manager included by default will be a big help to a lot of people.

Jeff said...

I'd just like to say, thanks for setting that straight.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

A response: http://www.osnews.com/story.php/16802/On-Favouritism-Apologies-and-Black-Helicopters/

Anonymous said...

Note: Capitalize the first word of every sentence. It's just proper form and adds a sense of professionalism to your well-formed and deeply intimate knowledge of KDE Development. Now, as for Thom, he's on his own island where the only inhabitant is Gilligan.

Anonymous said...

I think the real problem is that KDE doesn't release enough info about what's going on. Sure there's appeal.kde.org with info on all the different KDE 4.0 projects, but the info is the same thing I saw when I'd first heard the term KDE 4.0. It's outdated, and from a user perspective, I see nothing but talk. There's no articles posted about your progress, no screenshots of anything.

I have to dig around for a long time just to find what KDE developers think KDE 4.0 might look like. It should not be that way, there should be specifics on the web about what's done and what's coming. You should even have some generic release dates posted. They don't have to be accurate to the day, but tell us, when do you expect to start shipping public betas, February/March or more like May/June. At least with his article, we got a target of the first half of next year from you.

Thom's an idiot at times, but at least he got some info out in the open. That makes his article a very good one.

syncomm said...

As a KDE 4 dev, I put in some long hours with kdelibs/kdebase a few months back. I think people just fail to understand what a rough job it was to move KDE to the new Qt. None of the visual innovation can come before there is a solid backend behind it -- so looking for screenshot as a sign of progress is a bit of a delusion.

Anonymous said...

I understand what you're saying syncomm, it'd just be nice to have some more info about the status of the upcoming release. It looks dead from the general public's point of view. There should be more info easily available.

Anonymous said...

The more hype that KDE4 gets, the more disappointed people will be.

If KDE4 gets a trickle of information, it would hopefully satisfy the truly interested, but not give enough information that people will start to get a bigger picture than it is, don't you think?

If people don't know what's going into it, they could be happily surprised when it comes out and the solid information is there, of what is definately in it, instead of just vague ideas which can chop and change.

Dark Phoenix (Nixa) said...

Despite what Thom says on OSNews, you can just TELL he's biased against Linux; look at the Linux category of his blog. EVERY STORY is either talking about something Linux has to "fix", about how user-unfriendly it is, or about how Gnome/KDE should be embracing Microsoft technology X (Mono, etc.)

And uh, used the Vista beta. Been there, done that. Vista has nothing I can't find with Linux/X.

Being a developer, I'm looking into picking up a book on Qt4 and seeing if I can help out with KDE4 myself. After all, what good is a college education (I'm in my second year of a CompSci degree) without real programming experience?

Anonymous said...

Using KDE 3.5.x and happy.Keep up the good work.KDE is better with each release and I'm like it.

<a href="http://google.com">Alex</a> said...

:)