Tuesday, August 15, 2006

0.36%?

i read an article today proclaiming that linux only has 0.36% of the desktop market based on a sample set of two million web users. in one online discussion about it some people posted links to stats on other websites that showed similarly dismal number hovering around the 1% mark. then i looked at some general interest (e.g. non-technical, non-geeky, non-specialist content) sites that i have the stats to and they are reporting 3-4% for linux. then there was the private study i saw recently that put it over the 5% mark and of course my own personal experiences of constantly running into linux desktop users ... except in airports where i never see them. what's going on here?

i recently read freakonomics at the recommendation of adriaan de groot, and reflecting on that book i decided to consider: well, what if all those numbers are accurate? how could that be and what would that say about linux desktops?

interestingly, those websites with ~1% linux visitors were web site developer sites. perhaps people who run linux aren't the same people who make web sites. or perhaps those that do make web sites on linux don't learn how to do so by reading those kinds of tutorial sites. perhaps they read books or they learned somewhere else, such as from friends, colleagues, school, etc...

but what about the two million users? i think the same thing may be at play here. the websites profiled are general interest sites. not the sort the average geek might look through perhaps. or perhaps ....

... perhaps what everyone says about linux deployment is true. no, not that it isn't happening ;) but that it isn't happening amongst home users, road warriors, etc. but that it is happening in schools, companies (and particularly single purpose systems) and government offices. that would explain the absence in the airports and the recreational web. it would also match what we're good at and what we're not.

so i wonder if what's happening is that measuring usage by web traffic tends to measure the home market where we are dismal. this would make all the numbers jive quite well.

as a side note .. i was over at t.'s tonight and we installed a web app on her suse 10.0 OSS system. she likes the suse, but it turns out that version doesn't package php pear (suse9 did) nor the gettext support in php. wtf? where is the suse of yore, the suse i loved, the suse i adored with every package? i guess the answer is that suse is not for me, or i'm not for it. one or the other, we have grown apart.

*a moment of silence*

update: so suse10oss does have php-pear packages, but t.'s yast (despite having the correct sources listed) isn't showing them. arg! will have to look into it and see why yast is breaking. note: perhaps instead of writing a gtk+ front end to yast (gotta love that NIH) perhaps those developer hours could be spent improving it? no, that'd make sense.

also, a comment on the blog brought up another good point regarding linux usage stat differential on website: it varies wildly by geography, so depending on the country/region that the website caters to the usage stats can also vary wildly. good point.

the same comment noted that in their region it's primarily due to cost being seen as the primary benefit to open source and using software against the authors will (aka "piracy") isn't seen as a bad thing.

27 comments:

Anonymous said...

Perhaps i'm missing something but php4-pear and php5-pear seem to be in the repository for suse 10.0 to me.
http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.0-OSS/inst-source/suse/i586/php4-pear-4.4.0-6.i586.rpm

http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.0-OSS/inst-source/suse/i586/php5-pear-5.0.4-9.i586.rpm

also look promising are are the phpX-gettext packages

http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.0-OSS/inst-source/suse/i586/php4-gettext-4.4.0-6.i586.rpm

http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.0-OSS/inst-source/suse/i586/php5-gettext-5.0.4-9.i586.rpm

Anonymous said...

I just looked at nontech pages stats at my homeland - 0,7% marked as "other" (not win* or mac), Mac - only 0.5%.

In my country most of ppl think that using pirated version of MS Win, Office, Adobe Photoshop etc. is OK. They say - why I should choose Linux, if it doesn't run my Photoshop?? Arguments like "but You don't own PS license" doesn't work...

Aaron J. Seigo said...

@anonymous1: yay! so it was just YAST not showing anything else without any explanations. *sigh* i'll have to have a second look into what's going on with her install then. we did check the install sources and they all looked good. =/

@anonymous2: out of curiosity: what is your homeland? and yes, we do need to a lot more education. price is over hyped as the selling point for open source, IMHO. it is an effect lever for certain groups of people but is far from universal.

Soundmonster said...

@anonymous2: the same thing with my home country. Almost nobody using linux there (even no IT-students and other geeky folks) - mostly due to winmodems being so cheap and , alas, so quirky under linux, and DSL too expensive.
But now I'm living in Germany and I'm always running into linux desktop users here. Once even met a girl who didn't have anything in common with IT, and was still using a Gentoo! I mean, you never really expect your date to know what CFLAGS are ;)

Quintesse said...

Well, I don't know about anon2's country but I've been to Colombia several times and there are complete shopping malls that sell nothing but pirated software. With the official prices being almost as high as in 1st world countries and salaries which are of course many times lower the fact that it might be illegal doesn't even enter into these people's minds.

And money is made with Windows (of course) so there is no need for an alternative (again in their minds).

Acceptance would most likely be ideological as well, it would just be a different ideology than we use here. Here it might be freedom from the clutches of proprietary software, there it might be freedom from American influences (see Brazil and several Asian countries).

segedunum said...

Hmmm. That's most interesting. I've just logged into my Suse 10.0 install remotely, ran the text based YaST and searched for php-bear, and it's in there. I also have the gettext and all the other PHP stuff as well.

Admittedly, I ditched the disc repository a while ago and added all the OSS, Java, KDE and other mirror repositories I needed from the OpenSuse (sorry, I just can't bring myself to spell it the other way) web site, but php-pear should be in the OSS repository itself.

If you've added a web repository (so you don't have to muck about with discs - a nice feeling!) try switching on the refresh to refresh all the packages for the repository. Beware that this can take quite a while, and you'll want to switch it off later as every time you run the software management it will refresh the repository and take ages. Sometimes this is needed to get packages to show up properly. If you haven't got a web OSS repository defined, I would try that (assuming decent bandwidth), try switching the disc one off and refreshing.

As for Suse 10.1, I haven't had much luck at all with package management in there. The updates have made it moderately better, but I still have problems getting packages from repositories and installing sometimes. I just don't see the point in a (reasonably) working system being replaced. Not looking forward to the future there.

It looks as if YaST will be slowly deprecated in favour of something like Zenworks, and what's worse is that it isn't even a port of Zenworks as we know it - it's a rewrite using the zenith of all programming languages, C#. I can't say I'm keen on the GTK front-end thing either - surely that's a candidate for Qt and GTK integration through QtGTK or something?

Just not keen on where Suse is heading, which is a real shame. Stephen Binner and the other guys do a really great job on KDE packages as well. Yes, they're not supported but the upgrade process has always been painless and well thought out. Suse just isn't for me now, so I'll be off to (K)Ubuntu land.

Anonymous said...

I'm afraid a value below 1% is not so unrealistic. I work as a developer for one of the biggest TV production companies in Germany an we have less than 1% visitors with Linux on our webpages too (25-30% Firefox though). Our products are mainstream and a bit above I guess.

From all my friends (who are usually technical more experienced than normal people) only two use Linux as their standard OS. A lot of them use it as second OS but stay with Windows most of the time.
I figured the following points are extremely important to really switch people to Linux:

A simple way to execute Windows binaries (Wine is not simple) and - yes - drivers. If a Windows user has to leave one of his devices or programs away, he won't switch. And Linux has no good software in some areas like e.g. video editing (and that's a very important area with a growing market of DV cams and DVD burners!).

Polishing! The default fonts on Linux (KDE and Gnome likewise) are way to big for example, that's only usable for notebooks with a resolution >120dpi. I don't know anyone who doesn't scale them down on a standard 96 dpi monitor.
Slow GUI redrawing is a BIG disadvantage too, it looks very unprofessional. Xgl/AIGLX will be a improvement but doesn't solve situations where you resize a windows. The redrawing issue is the most annoying thing for me at the moment because I can't solve it.
i18n screws up also a lot. E.g. the system settings program in Kubuntu looks really terrible in German because the words are much longer. They break in an ugly way. Windows does that MUCH better, I never recognized a translation based layout problem there.
And the clipboard still really sucks (I know why and I know it was much worse...). Try copy an image from Krita to Gimp and viceversa. It doesn't work.

Autoconversion: if you install Linux it should convert neary everything to Linux. That means settings for browsers, mail, username, network etc.. People are too lazy to do that themselves and will boot Windows instead. I can observe that very often. Firefox did this the right way, it converts all settings from IE. And people stay with FF.

Windows-like defaults in the human/computer interaction area. People don't like changes. The mouse should feel the same, no "nodeadkeys" setting in xorg.conf etc..
KDE performs quite nicely in that area today but it could be further improved. That argument is one of the most important with the more experienced people I know. It feels different and they prefer staying with Windows. It's more a matter of acclimatisation (I got used to it after about four days) but that issue should not be underestimated.

segedunum said...

On the subject of Linux usage, if it's the OneStat thing you're talking about then in order to get counted you actually need to visit one of their sites. Assuming that their sites account for the whole of the internet I would wager this isn't very accurate.

As for Linux deployment, I happen to believe that it is being done by individuals on an ad-hoc basis and put into small businesses and other areas where they have influence. The mass deployments in offices, schools and government agences are few and far between - if they're happening at all. As a result, I happen to think that the individual home and SMB market is probably a much better measure to be honest because they're the people who can just go out and do it.

Olaf Jan said...

Many web site statistics are based on systems that require cookies from third-party sites. If you don't allow these cookies, then you are not counted.

Another problem is that people have experienced many TV- or movie-websites as broken with Linux browsers (Flash, DRM, etc), so they avoid these kinds of sites if they only use Linux, or use Windows if they dual-boot.

liquidat said...

About the statistics - it feels a bit strange I have to admit. Especially because here in germany MacOS is not spread at all, and you hardly meet anyone who has such a system in private.

But, well, in the worst case it just means that we have to spread the word even more :)

About the Suse/Yast thing: first of all I would install Suse 10.1 instead of 10.0 because they fixed quite a lot of these yast bugs. Second there are still several problems in this field, so you should start by updating your software after installation.

Third: there are alternatives: you can use apt4rpm, smart or yum on suse without any problems, because all these tools can access the same repository type in these days: the XML package metadata. And, of course, all Suse repositories are XML package metadata repositories in these days.

Some more information:
Yum on Suse 10.0
Smart on Suse 10.0
Yum on Suse 10.1

Pedro Alves said...

Doesn't google publish usage reports?
I guess they would have more accurate results, no?

Tim said...

here are some nicer though smaller numbers http://www.innergeek.us/forum/viewtopic.php?t=483 :)

I don't have a hard time with those numbers. It took me maybe 10 linux disteros to decide that ONE (kubuntu) was better than windows. Kubuntu IS better than windows, it supports my network card(ndis) it supports my 2 gigs of ram, it is faster than windows. it has better support for keyboard navigation. it is more custimizable. it has 1000's of programs avalible at not but alt-space syna... search, mark apply. that don't require going and asking my dad for money(only 15). so for me, linux is not better. KUBUNTU is better. Though I would have to say it crashes quite often.

Anonymous said...

i don't think linux needs to be pushed more, at leased not here in germany.

there is already enough advertising for our target audience, the intererested computer user. you find linux articles in every major computer magazine, and a linux thread or even an own category in every computer forum.

many of these people in germany try linux. but most of them don't stay with it. so the product isn't mature enough right now. there are still to many things that are just way to hard to handle even for interested computer users. thats not really kdes fault - most distros are just not integrated.

but kde as another opportunity: make a even better desktop. the better the normal working feels, the more are people willing to invest to keep this feeling.
the windows desktop clearly is crap. thats a great chance for every competitor!

P.S.: about target audience: i don't think we can target the "normal" user right now. these people just don't install operating systems. they buy PCs, and use them till they don't work anymore.

Rick said...

Realistically, it's about 1% and that's all you can really hope for because of the nature of desktop linux.

It could have turned out better, but desktop linux could never be presented as a cohesive product.

Maybe eventually, somebody will be able to make a consumer-oriented desktop OS from the linux kernel. But until then, it's just much more of the same

Anonymous said...

"perhaps people who run linux aren't the same people who make web sites"

I wouldn't say that. As a web developer, I have two machines in front of me - a Mac and a PC. Yes, the PC is running Windows, but it always has a VNC window open up to a third machine in the office running Fedora, which is where I do my coding.

The reason for the Windows and Mac, is that those are the dominant OSes on the Internet at the moment, so I need to make sure that my code works for both of them.

It is so much easier to be sure about that with a "real" IE6 than the Wine version (I have IE5, IE5.5 and IE6 installed via ies4linux (google it - great script!) - it's not quite the same, though).

That doesn't really account for web design site stats showing a Windows biase, though - most people do not browse their own sites very often, and all of my dev work is done in-house, so those stats do not represent me or my fellow web developers.

Instead, they would represent the people who are looking for our services, who tend to be non-technical people, which means Windows.

Kae
http://verens.com/

Aaron J. Seigo said...

@anonymous: "I work as a developer for one of the biggest TV production companies in Germany ... Our products are mainstream and a bit above I guess."

a mainstream product would be something everyone does. like eat or wear clothes.

what are the demographics of people who use or need your products?

note that web developers are themselves in the mainstream, but that web development isn't.

the rest of what you outline as to ways we can improve... i agree with most of them (though not all). we have more work to do. nobody doubts that and that's not even a question.

the question is "has the work done this far actually resulted in no futher uptake?" and some numbers say "yes" and some numbers say "no". the question is what does it mean if all those numbers, which appear to conflict on the surface, aren't actually in conflict but measuring different things in different ways?

@pedro: "Doesn't google publish usage reports?"

they used to. i believe they stopped.

"I guess they would have more accurate results, no?"

not necessarily. if linux desktops are used in situations where they are used less or not at all for web searching, then google's stats will also understate the linux market reach.

that's the issue i'm rolling around in my head right now: in our current period of market growth we aren't growing uniformly. this is to be expected, and it is also to be expected to create things that would appear as "anomolies" in data on usage (both lows and highs).

so the question i'm asking is: what does that "anomolous" data actually tell us about where we are growing and where we aren't? in other words, translating the data into a sort of topology for our market representation.

@anonymous: "many of these people in germany try linux. but most of them don't stay with it."

germany actually has a rather high linux desktop rate. and it's far about 1%. i'm not purporting that we have conquered the world with double digit market share; simply that we have significantly more than one third of one percent and that we are particularly weak in certain regions and market segments.

we don't need to capture everyone today, as you note we need to improve continuously to grow what we have.

@Kae: "That doesn't really account for web design site stats showing a Windows biase, though"

no, not web design company sites. "how to write html" educational web sites.

"As a web developer, I have two machines in front of me - a Mac and a PC. Yes, the PC is running Windows, but it always has a VNC window open up to a third machine in the office running Fedora, which is where I do my coding."

right, so there's a natural bias towards windows in webdev, even for those who do run linux. that's sort of the point i was trying to get at =)

Anonymous said...

> a mainstream product would be something everyone does. like
> eat or wear clothes.

Interesting, thanks. The meaning of "mainstream" in German (it's a common word here) is quite different. I guess it's a term like "beamer" (= projector in Germany, you know that already...) or "handy" (= cell phone). :)

> what are the demographics of people who use or need
> your products?

Average people, 14-49 years old. We produce quite popular and well known TV shows and the websites for it. Nothing computer related, nothing too sophisticated. Some statistics: Windows ~98%, MacOSX ~1%, Linux ~0,8%. 77% Internet Explorer, 21% Firefox, 1% Opera, nearly no Konqueror and Safari. About 20 mio. visits per month on our biggest site.

The websites work just fine with Linux btw. That is not the problem.

> germany actually has a rather high linux desktop rate.
> and it's far about 1%.

I doubt that. People here are very interested in free software and quite a lot have a Linux partition on their drive. But their main OS is Windows. I know about 30 guys that have Linux installed but only three of them (me included) use it on every day base. And still we three use Windows at work.
At the weekend I visited Evoke (evoke2006.net), the second largest demo scene party in Germany. A very cool event, 400 very talented geeks and even most of them used Windows. At least there were some Linux demos in the competition...

As another poster mentioned, Linux is not yet good enough for them. If we remove the causes they stay with Windows we could gain a huge amount of users, maybe 10%, in a short period.

Anonymous said...

Certain people running up with more than 0,36% of Linux users can be explained very easily.

It's called "social filtering". In other words, you spend too much time in bad company.

Rick said...

The numbers are troubling to many people. After all these years (and really you can go back to when XFree86 was first ported), and there's no competition to windows on the desktop.

But the root cause of this is fragmentation. And until people are able to recognize that, nothing will change.

Not having a stable driver API will always hurt linux too.

segedunum said...

a mainstream product would be something everyone does. like eat or wear clothes.

The problem is, in the Linux world no one is doing it ;-).

Anonymous said...

anonymous2, continued.
Of course stats look different on server side - 55% Unix like OS and 67% running Apache. Also Gecko based browsers have 32% of browser market. They figures may be not so accurate, but it is something at least (http://www.pulss.lv/).

If we talk about spreading Linux to desktops, then there are some problems:
1) .gov is locked by very strong MS lobby. As by using OS there is less possibility to get corrupted, currently I see no way how to get OS into .gov sector. (It really is so - example - there is some small scandal ongoing about ~10x overpriced main gov portal (www.latvia.lv). Coincidence - competition about who will create such portal was won by friends company of minister of e-gov.)

2) Talking about price IS worst way to popularize OS, but talking about freedom is much worse. Ordinary ppl don't understand what freedom is. When I say - it's matter of YOUR freedom - they answer me - "but I CAN use win, photoshop etc. for FREE". At one tech forum we had poll "Do You use legal software and why?". Results - most of participant where using pirated soft with reason "it's too expensive for me to by legal soft, but I need THIS software". (Actually I doubt it. Mostly - why use photoshop to resize holidays pictures and coreldraw to make simple sketch?) OK - they where home users, but companies are not better - last year one of largest newspaper printing companies was shut down for week by BSA - all they PC's where full with pirated soft...

3) I use Linux (missing GNU/ - RMS would call me "selfish bastard" for such thing ;)) daily for more than three years and unfortunately I have to agree with some other comments - there is still a lot to do before GNU/Linux will be enduser desktop ready. I'm not a "selfish bastard" - I try to help as I can (translations, bugreports, promotion) but there is still long way to go.

Version4 said...

Just found this, add another 22,000 PCs:
http://www.informationweek.com/software/
showArticle.jhtml?articleID=192201448

What bugs me tho, is that there is not one KDE based distro there (SuSE (ex-KDE now GNOME), RedHat and Ubuntu (not Kubuntu?))

Aaron J. Seigo said...

@Version4: they mention Linspire/Freespire.. and last i checked, most of those indiana schools were currently running Linspire. who, btw, seems to have started that initiative.

it may have changed since it started (2 years ago? 1?) as i don't keep daily tabs on it ;)

Anonymous said...

Freakonomics is an excellent book. Makes you think about incentives all day and what peoples' intentions are driven by.

Anonymous said...

I am an engeneer. I use Linux everyday. Sure, some very useful software i need is written only for Win (and is expensive too).

My collegues were suspicious about Linux (too difficoult, too much shell commands...), but they started look at me writing and doing calculations with OpenOffice, creating Databases with PostgreSQL. So they started using Free Software (GIMP, Firefox).

One day one collegue of mine was looking at my too-old-laptop-for-WinXP being healty and VERY STABLE with a smart KDE interface with Kontact, Krita, Karbon14 running as a piece of cake...ta-dah: in less than a week 3 of 6 collegues started using Linux.

So we started thinking a little fundraising for support kde with money spared from some licence.

We still use Win (and we'll do forever) but only for those programs written only for Win.

In my opinion Linux will never replace Windows...but we live a life of possibilities and Linux is one of these. So let's spread this possibility!

(Sorry for my bad english, folks)

jayKayEss said...

I dumped YaST for Smart; it's a pain to set up, but much nicer in the long run... no more glacial waits just to add a new repo or start up the interface.

And yes, I'm troubled about the direction SuSE is headed, too.

Vladislav Blanton said...

I'm a website developer that develops in linux/KDE using Quanta! I also have a windows partition that I never touch unless I get a complaint that something doesn't work right in IE.

I've been thinking about VM and/or running IE within linux...