Waldo blogged about the virtues of a common configuration system.
he made some good points, like how it's a configuration system, not a format. yes, there is a distinction and i chose the wrong word in my haste. my bad. he also notes that a standard system for configuration is a good idea, something i agree on now as i did when i wrote my blog.
but he decided to ignore the actual issues i raised and simply recite the happy song of "we like standards". as such i'm highly dissapointed; Waldo simply dismissed the uncomfortable points instead of addressing them.
first, he says that Havoc and he are on the list and they are principles behind gconf and kconfig so that's Good Enough(tm) for having people writing these systems involved. how myopic.
there's a broad world outside of gconf and kconfig. i mentioned Samba for a very good reason. it's a desktop centric application, they have worked up a new backend for configuration and they are itching to work with us. there are also a number of people who have worked on configuration in KDE and there are people working on it now. i named one of them in my last blog, as a matter of fact.
saying "by all means, join the fun" as an invitation to get people in the conversation completely misses the whole point of "extending outreach". this is the #1 reason why FD.o has 10x the noise it should and faces 10x the opposition from developers i talk to than it should: FD.o represents a self selected group of people though it is attempting to (and often successfully) standardizing other people's work and projects. if you don't see how broken that is, i suggest going for a walk in the wonderful spring weather (or fall, if you are in the South half of our planet) and pondering that point.
i'd also love to hear why Waldo thinks FreeDesktop.org should be in the business of software development versus standardization. i don't like software written by committee and i have little faith in the ability for software written specifically for standardization to be as good as software written that is written to be innovative.
i appreciate the time Waldo took to respond to my blog, but maybe next time he'll actually respond instead of deflect. i know he's really into making standards, and i think that's an amazingly critical goal. but we ought to do it right so as not to be left with a desktop platform that's standardized but tastes like cold porridge. because if we do, someone will break from the pack just like has always happened and you can kiss your hard earned standardization goodbye. we had standards on X before this, but they sucked. in part because they were proprietary, and in part because they were designed by committee for standardization not goodness.
we can pretend challenges don't exist or we can deal with them. which will it be?
Monday, April 11, 2005
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15 comments:
I find it difficult to understand what your main point is.
In part you seem to be suggesting the FD.O is some sort of private club that is doing it's thing and is uninterested in the rest of the world.
However, wasn't FD.O created precisely so there was somewhere common for people who worked on different projects to come together and talk about (and work on) things that could have common benefit?
The tone of your pieces are fairly scathing towards FD.O but as far as I can see the people involved with FD.O are trying to do the right thing. They are talking openly about what they have, what they need and what is already available and some possibilities for going forward. It seems to me that there needs to be more of what the people involving themselves with FD.O are doing.
However you seem to think that "the discussion on xdg is a very good example of how messed up FreeDesktop.org is becoming". But you also seem to be complaining that they aren't talking to enough people.
I'm just a bystander but I just don't get what the problem is.....
> seem to be suggesting the FD.O is
> some sort of private club
no, it's not private. it's open to whomever wishes to join. and that passive "come if you want" simply isn't enough for some of the things they are tackling.
> is uninterested in the rest of
> the world
i think that this at times is quite true.
> created precisely so...
what it was created for and what it's doing are not necessarily the same things. yes, it was created to be a central location for working on/towards common desktop technologies. it's done that very well, and i've been a staunch supporter of FD.o for a long time. i believe it's starting to stray from being a healthy thing, however.
> the people involved with FD.O are
> trying to do the right thing
the motivations of most of the people involved are terrific. the road to hell is paved with good intentions, however. whether the results of their efforts are beneficial is the real question. in the past they generally have been, i see this becoming less and less the case and with something like DConf is affects too many people to get it wrong.
> It seems to me that there needs
> to be more of what the people
> involving themselves with FD.O
> are doing
i've never said otherwise.
> you also seem to be complaining
> that they aren't talking to
> enough people
correct. the discussion happening on FD.o these days, especially with regard to DConf, tends to be too limited in scope, largely in part due to it being a self selected group of participants.
another very important issue which you seem to have missed is that they are becoming engaged in software development itself. FD.o is starting more and more to design the actual desktops but OUTSIDE of the desktop projects. with each passing success, i see fewer of the people who ought to be involved in the conversations being involved.
this is mostly because the scope is growing.
and saying "well, those people should show up" doesn't cut it.
but if it (d-conf) sucks in the end, wont it mean it just will not be used? the designed and tested config backends are already here.
or are you making these statements because you are scared kde will adopt bad software and end up shooting its own foot?
sorry, i think i need make my comment plumper.
do you not think freedesktop has a chance of comming up with a good system? there are now so many good systems to look at and learn from. can't that do as a subsitute for the system being built in (on location) its place need?
im sorry these comments come from someone with very little understanding of the existing config systems and how they might be contenders as a base for the common unix config system.
> but if it (d-conf) sucks in the
> end, wont it mean it just will
> not be used?
if DConf is not up to snuff, there are two possible outcomes, neither of which is pretty.
a) it isn't adopted. this would drastically hurt FreeDesktop.org's credibility and probably render it finished as a place to create standards. this would be a hard blow to desktop standardization, which is something we do need.
b) it is adopted, FreeDesktop.org's credibility is preserved but we now have a really crappy system. one that will be harder to move away from in the future because now more people use it and rely on it. we either live with a hobbled desktop or else someone breaks from the pack and we lose standardization (again) and FreeDesktop.org's usefulness is diminished.
if DConf comes out as a quality piece of software, but along the way FreeDesktop.org disenfranchises those working with config systems by simply ignoring them or working (unintentionally) counter to them, it will make it a very hard sell to the community.
standardization should be something easily adopted and welcomed, not rammed down peoples throat like a bitter pill. and it doesn't need to be.
configuration, btw, is only the most recent of such events, but perhaps the largest yet. notification and DBUS both were done in very suboptimal ways. this repeated behaviour will end up wrecking the potential of FreeDesktop.org.
Sorry Aaron,
In what subotimal ways were notification and DBUS done? This is worth a blog bost, since it would help people to understand what are the problems you see with freedesktop process.
Aaron, I've just been reading your personal homepage where you say:
A hot item at the moment is software integration, what's your opinion about that subject with regard to KDE?
I assume you are referring to integration non-KDE software with KDE software, as KDE software is already a highly integrated and flexible technology stack. On the issue of making KDE more inclusive, I think it is a great idea and has the potential to give KDE yet another strategic advantage over other available solutions.
KDE-ifying Open Office or allowing Gtk+ applications to use KDE libraries helps make the KDE experience more consistent for the user. Since we are primarily writing software for users, making their (our) experience better is what it is all about.
Doing things like D-BUS, D-Confe, D-VFS, and in general, freedesktop.org, is all about making the experience of our users better.
The fact that users now have to decide which desktop to use has a great impact on their desktop experience. An example how to make this experience more consistent is by defining a common standard to store and retrieve desktop application configuration.
That way, and only that way, can different overlapping desktop applications start sharing configuration keys. If a user of a GNOME application sets a certain setting, it's very possible that the same user wants to use the same setting for an overlapping KDE application. I can imagine multiple such settings like the proxy and printer settings. But also E-mail accounts. And later perhaps also contacts of the messenger. Contacts in the E-mail client. Calendaring information. Volume settings. Etcetera.
At this moment we, developers, aren't making that easily doable for our users. It's one of the many reasons to try standarizing the configuration subsystems of our desktops. At this moment we are locking our users in our desktop environments. Some of the GNOME developers, like me, don't want to do that. We want to enable our users to make choices themselves. We do have great respect for the KDE developers. It would be really nice if KDE and GNOME could finally start really working together or creating the concept of a usable free desktop. And not just by only defining standards and by only arguing which technology is the best: DCOP, ORBit-2, D-BUS, gnome-vfs, KIO. The typical user of our softwares doesn't give a fuck about those technologies. I know some of us, developers, do. But lets try working together on the concept of a free desktop. Thats basically my proposal of which D-Conf is an important component.
> is all about making the
> experience of our users better.
Phillip, you're not hearing what i'm saying.
in fact, you apparently missed the title of the blog entry you are replying to.
i have no issues with the goals, in fact i support them.
my problem is with the process which people are attempting to accomplish this by. those processes are, IMHO, currently flawed and getting worse. and without the right processes we won't get there.
that is why people such yourself, who wish to see a consistent desktop as much as i do, should examine the methodologies being used.
> my problem is with the process which
> people are attempting to accomplish this
> by. those processes are, IMHO, currently
> flawed and getting worse. and without
> the right processes we won't get there.
> that is why people such yourself, who
> wish to see a consistent desktop as
> much as i do, should examine the
> methodologies being used.
You're right about the fact that at this moment the discussions happening on xdg-list aren't ideal discussions and/or that the way freedesktop.org works isn't perfect.
However. It's a young organisation thats learning by making mistakes, correcting them, etcetera. I'm confident that in the end freedesktop.org will be a much more usable place for discussions about standards and for hosting and creating and discussing shared desktop technologies.
But lets all work on this goal in a constructive way. Let be intelligent people and show the world that the opensource/free software communities are indeed intelligent people who can work together and still enjoy programming the different software implementations they are doing or will be doing.
My opinion on this is that the freedesktop world needs some type of technical leadership. A consistent technical leadership that can and will make decisions for desktop environments like KDE and GNOME. Decisions like which VFS-layer to use. Like which configuration system. Like which IPC should be used in which situation. Etcetera. And of course should that board make decisions based on good analysis. And of course should such a board contain important members of all the involved desktop environment communities.
So in fact both KDE and GNOME should organise a vote and choose the members of such a board....
But thats of course just my opinion.
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